Nothing like a good old Evolution vs. Creationism debate to get me back onto the boards
*cracks knuckles*
Ok, so here's the problem with the whole debate i've seen thus far: Both sides are stuck on the biblical restrictions.
So first off you say the idea of an omnipotent creator is completely baseless and should be discounted all together? Why? I think an explantion is in order...
You see, to really get to the core of this issue, we have to go back to the begining and combine science and philosophy. So from what we have obvserved, we have the Big Ban, inflation theory, and a dozen different variations on each. These are reletively reasonable and are based on observed facts and logic. But of course they leave one gaping question: What came before that? Well inflation theory describes how the universe can come from nothing. And again, all is logical and probably true. However at the end of the article a very important observation is made:
quote: So let's be clear. Is Guth saying that cosmology can crack the ultimate mystery? That creation can be just another physical process that science has rendered prosaic, like the discovery that germs cause disease or Earth circles the sun?
Guth smiles and puts his fingertips together.
"I like to be careful how I put that," he says. "The way I like to say it is that we are approaching a scenario for the creation of the universe that is compatible with the laws of physics. That raises the question: 'Where do the laws of physics come from?'" He pauses. "We are a long way from being able to answer that one."
So there you go, the Big Question. Where did these intangible (and strangely logical, orderly, and -intelligent-) rules come from. It's not rigth to blindly beleive it is an inteligent creator, but it does give it *slighty* more crediblity, at least in my eyes. If you say that there is no hard proof, then i simply say, i'm asking you to beleive it, simply acknowladge it is a possiblity. Lets assume the Bible means nothing, there are still huge holes in scientific understanding of evolutions.
You've mentioned the infamous amino acid experiment. First off lets assume that the hypothetical circumstancs of that experiment were similar to the actual conditions one Earth 3.5 billion years ago. Yeah, so they create microspheres. Of amino acid. Those are not precursors to cells, not by a long shot. There are no protiens, carbohydrates, or the biggie, RNA. Amnio acids are complex, but protiens are even moreso. Life needs protiens, Its simple. Without that you have no enyzmes for RNA/DNA replication. So far we haven't even come close to synthesizing proteins without using pre-existing life. It's simply too difficult and is beyond our scientific knowlage and techonology to do this.
So...
In order for life to be create spontaneously we need organic building block, enough to create some amnio acids. Ok, we know how this might have happened. Lighting striking the primordial soup, right? Well now you have a bunch of amino acids, you still have to get them into complex protiens, and we have no idea how this would happen. In fact this natural protein creation seems impossible. But lets assume you get the proteins. You still need to have the RIGHT SERIES of protiens. The right enzymes to collect organic molecules and other elments and form them into another replicant. And still more hurdles... Becuase now we need to spontaneously form RNA, or at least something like it. This would involve another series of impossible reactions. Then we have to assume that all of these extremely complex and fragile molecules are created reletivly close to eachother, and survive long enough to duplicate eachother.
As you can imagine, this scenerio is so complex, so impossible, so based on chance that in the end, to believe it is a definite requires a great deal of, you guessed it, faith.
So believing in exclusively spontaneous creation/evolution is the same as believing exclusively In Yahweh or Jehova or Allah and the various religous texts.
Science and God are not mutually exclusive. In the end i've found that in order to make the most sense of things, a combination of the two is best. A sort of agnostic-leaning-towards-deism philosophy. I just hope everyone realizes that they shouldn't be so arrgant because your most likely blind to half the information out there.
if you want to see mutations and evolution on such a personally observable time scale you have to use bacteria. plate out some E. coli on some agar; pick one colony representing a unicellular-orginiating DNA sequence; grow the cells in liquid broth; expose these cells on another agar plate to an antibiotic such as tetracycline, ampicillin, or erythromycin which are largely bacteriostatic (preventing bacterial growth); observe how some of those bacterial cells proliferate despite the antibiotic. presto chango, you've witnessed evolution over the course of hundreds of generations - if you sequenced the DNA of the resistant organisms and compared it to the original colony sequence they would be > 99% identical - and an example of a beneficial mutation. that's directly observable. i don't understand how this fails to support evolution. i suppose it'd be nice if we could personally observe this trend with people and other animals but we can't - but that lack of direct observation doesn't provide a very convincing counter-argument to evolution.
quote: Twould. Also, you lack of wisdom teeth are hereditary. Your species has not changed, or anything of the sort.
lol, your talking out of your *** now, i would stop responding. It isnt hereditary, my mom, dad, brother, sister, grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle, they all have/had wisdom teeth. It is a mutation and mutations are real.
I have another example for you.
All of the black cats out there... thats a mutation. It is prevelant now but a thousand years ago you would be hard pressed to find one.
quote: God experimented. Put a lot of stuff out, to see what would work. Naturally, a lot of it didn't, died out over a period of time, and became todays fossils, in nice neat order
Why would god need to experiment if he knew everything? He wouldn't need to "try" new things out and see how they faired, since he'd already know the outcome. Hum. Kind of destroys that point..
If you look back through posts, several of us responded to your earlier post.
You still think that all steps of evolution depend on mutation. Giving genes from one generation to the next doesn't need ANY mutation, which is why KING TUT DOESNT GIVE BIRTH TO A ***QUAT PLANT THAT GIVES BIRTH TO STEVE MARTIN.
No, the theory of evolution DOES NOT say that it works. Do you understand? It doesn't work that way. Species don't turn into other species.
Parts of a species (perhaps because of spreading to a new enviroment or having new competitive factors) will SLOWLY change and eventually have the characteristics of a species we have today.
The entire species doesn't turn into a new one, but the parts that do SLOWLY, OVER THOUSANDS TO MILLIONS OF YEARS turn completely into the new species, or the intermediaries die off.
It was pretty bad satire.
My verbal promiscuity can be exquisitely awe-inspiring, except at the occaisonal cerebral crevasse.
But you ain't seeing it, sucka.
There's nothing wrong with MuchMusic, it's Canadian.
You're surpsrisingly eloquent. A nice thing to see among out modern day kids raised on MTV and MuchMusic.
quote:There's nothing about Punctuated Equilibrium that says crows=carrot eating monkeys!
Not that specifically, but according to the theory, it works.You suddenly, over a period of not so many generations, an entire species becoming another one. How logical is that?
quote:You're name is Pie! Your mother was a harlot who gained superpowers from John Foster Dulles in the back of a Twinkie factory!
I thought that was pretty funny, actually, if a bit off the mark.
quote:Do you have ANY idea what evolution is about? Things PASS ON TRAITS, they don't just RANDOMLY ASSIGN THINGS.
The mutations are randomly assigned in the first place. Unless you believe in Intelligent Design. If something gets a trait, it passes it on. Too bad this trait is never helpful.
quote:You don't know genes work, because you've never taken a real biology class in your christian school!
Actually, in my ordianary, satanic punk rocker filled high school, we're partway through biology. We just watched a video on P. Equilibrium a week or two ago, actually.
quote:Trees appearing TWO WEEKS before cats and dogs? How about millions and millions and millions of years before that? Or does your brain not hold numbers that big?
Satire has a definition.
quote:Evolution doesn't make any sense in your head because you have absolutely no idea how it works! NONE! WHATSOEVER!
I have no idea how it works, because it doesn't.
quote:Pie, think about the emergence of SARS. That's some modern day evolution for you. It didn't exist before, but now, here it is, having MUTATED form something else
Believe it or not, bacterium differ from complex species (complex being anything with a sexual reproductive system, not a cell bacteria that simply reproduces itself.
Hmm, me and 2069 seem to have simultaniously posted. Aw well, on to buisness.
quote:Why would God create a fossil recored, (Including fossils of bacteria from 3.5 billions years ago, well before the Bibles creation date of 4004 B.C.E.) at all? Why wouldn't the planet and the universe have a fresh minty smell? Why is there background radiation leading enormous cred to the Big Bang, why would a intelligent designer do all that, to test us? To see how long we could ignore whats in front of our very eyes?
God experimented. Put a lot of stuff out, to see what would work. Naturally, a lot of it didn't, died out over a period of time, and became todays fossils, in nice neat order. For all we know, the Earth could have had a minty smell, before all the animals started crapping, according to your precious dating systems, the bottom of the Grand Canyon is older than the top, and radiation comes from nuclear reactions from the stars.
quote:This is straight out of the Bible. Do you agree with it? Does killing homosexuals appeal to you? Of course it doesn't, so why do you stick to a story claiming that the Earth, was created in 7 days, in 4004 B.C.E.? You bible-thumping creationists have decided to pick and choose your beliefs based on nothing more than convienence.
Jesus fulfilled the minor laws of the Old Testament (I.e, minor being all except for the Ten Commandments), and they are therefore not applicable anymore.
quote:You act like there is no transition between the animals, you mentioned archyopteryx, an animal that is a combination of a reptile and bird. It shows the transition. In fact, T-Rex infants still had feathers from their avian ancestors.
Oh, man. Dinosaurs to birds, not birds to dinosaurs. And can you show me a series of fossils detailing the transition from theropod to Archy? From Archy to modern bird? If Rex infants had feathers from avian ancestors, then something is very, very wrong in the scientific community.
quote:Let me give you an example of how simple evolution is. Hunter-gatherer situation, somebody is born smarter then the other **** Erectus's. This **** Erectus has had a gene that mutated him, making him smarter. So, he's able to kill more antalope, and has 4 children, 1 of whome dies in infancy.
Firstly, these altrications are never helpful. We have never seen a beneficial one. So, lets assume that this little story of yours is plausible. One, this "human" has to succesfully mate. Two, it must have survived childhood in the first place. Three its children must recieve it's intelligence, not the dimness of a wife. Three, the possibly bright children it may not have need to make it through their childhood, grow up, and mate with other dim apes, and have children who are bright, and then need to have thier kids get successful intelligent children from dumb apes of the time...the odds are incredible against it.
quote:Dispute that, bi tch.
Ooh, that was decisive.
quote: If your gonna dispute Evolution, your taking on alot of fields of science, and alot of brilliant, well educated people.
At other websites, I've had my *** kicked, but I'm getting better.
PIE! That's not an argument in any way! Maybe if I knew you were trying to be funny, that would have some merit, but this is simply ridiculous!
Almost nothing you said actually has anything to do with evolution!
ARE YOU INSANE?
There's nothing about Punctuated Equilibrium that says crows=carrot eating monkeys! When you started this post, I thought you were trying to set out confused and addled but atleast THOUGHT OUT arguments, but now you're making random leaps of logic!
You're name is Pie! Your mother was a harlot who gained superpowers from John Foster Dulles in the back of a Twinkie factory!
There, I just made as much sense as most of your last post!
Do you have ANY idea what evolution is about? Things PASS ON TRAITS, they don't just RANDOMLY ASSIGN THINGS. Guess what, a pharoah doesn't have FRUIT TREE traits. I would say you're on extremely high-grade LSD, but you're simply too dull a person!
There's not going to be ONE housecat and one dog created randomly! There's not even going to be a housecat created before lots of feline prototypes evolve!
YOUR NOT THINKING ABOUT EVOLUTION! You're just taking your simplistic idea of evolution and tacking randomm, childish excrement to it! You're taking creationism and putting **** on it!
You don't know genes work, because you've never taken a real biology class in your christian school!
Trees appearing TWO WEEKS before cats and dogs? How about millions and millions and millions of years before that? Or does your brain not hold numbers that big?
If you've made a name for yourself, it's from PURE, UNADULTURATED STUPIDITY!
Evolution doesn't make any sense in your head because you have absolutely no idea how it works! NONE! WHATSOEVER!
Pie, think about the emergence of SARS. That's some modern day evolution for you. It didn't exist before, but now, here it is, having MUTATED form something else. Wow! Or did God put it there?
quote:All your "evidence" supporting creationism is the bible.
Granted. But there is not enough in evolution to make it realistic.
quote:That’s because evolution occurs over THOUSANDS of years
According to Punctuated Equilibrium, we can see it happen pretty much over a few generations. (The total transformation of one species into another). In a single persons life, all the crows on the planet could turn into small, carrot eating monkeys, according to the reasonable theory of evolution.
quote:We were not living thousands of years ago when these leopards evolved, so how could any person know what the first leopard looked like, eh?
Humans supposedly came into being thousands and thousands of years ago, and have been recording things for several thousand. Where in Egyptian litertature do we see a scrole write "And one of the Pharohs horses gave birth to a small fruit tree today.." or anything of the sort? Never.
quote:Actually, many fossils have yet to be discovered, and a plethora of them have been destroyed by weather and other climatic factors
Yes they do, and they won't shed light on anyting when they are found. There's nothing to shed light upon.
quote:Could you give a worse paradigm of the evolutionist theory? Evolution is not about certain chosen changes in any given amount of time; evolution is the evolving of species over extended periods of time, either to adapt to a certain environment that changed as time progressed, or for protection against other species, etc.
Yes, and mutations are needed for this, and they can't occur quickly enough in the amount of time evolution gives them. That is, even if they are beneficial.
quote:Please do some history before debating further, heh. We’ve had different species of dogs bred for work purposes and herding purposes. Take the Border collie, for instance (one of my dogs). There used to be no border collies under they were bred from various types of Scottish shepherds. But that type of breeding is decided, although evolution is not.
Yes, that is basic. But, through milleniums of breeding before specific breeds were "made" for differing purposes, we should have thousands of species of mongrel, no two alike. I'll go through it again. 1)A single cell learns that it can form into a blob of cells. 2)A blob of cells mysteriously gains organs, and all the necessities for complex life. 3)Blob with organs turns into multiple different species during the cambrian explosion. Still no explaination, but that's besides the point, here. 4)Dog is created. 5)Housecat is created. Dog eats cat, which then doesn't show up again for a few thousand years. 6)Dog find mate with same genetics and chromosomes that just happend to mutate from a blob at the same time. 7)Dogs spend steamy, sweaty afternoon in the shade of a primitive tree which had come from another blob two weeks earlier. 8)Puppies look a bit wierd, but still doglike, due to different hereditary features taken from parents, who were dogs, but still had different nose sizes, colors, ear shapes, and the ect ect. 9)Puppies go on to breed again, furthatr mixing features, and creating more pups, all of whom are totally different. 10)Repeat #8 and #9 for a few thousand more turns.
Evolution just doesn't make any sense.
quote:My point is that creationism is only possible if a higher power exists, which you have yet to prove
I'll go look for my ontilogical argument.
quote:I think that was so eloquently put that Pie and the Creationist Bunch should just retire to their humble abodes and snuggle with a juice box
So nice that we've made a name for ourselves.
quote:well yea you wouldnt because it would make you look like more of an idiot.
'Twould. Also, you lack of wisdom teeth are hereditary. Your species has not changed, or anything of the sort.
Pie, your always going on about what we haven't observed. Well the Earth is 4 billion years old. Humans have been around for 200,000 years, and we've only been making observations and following something resembling the Scientific method for the last 500 years. (Since the Renissance) EVOLUTION DOESN'T GO FAST ENOUGH FOR US TO OBSERVE IT! People live on Earth for 60, maybe 70 years, and call it a lifetime. You have no concept, and lake the ability, to wrap your brain around the idea of millions and billions of years of time.
Why would God create a fossil recored, (Including fossils of bacteria from 3.5 billions years ago, well before the Bibles creation date of 4004 B.C.E.) at all? Why wouldn't the planet and the universe have a fresh minty smell? Why is there background radiation leading enormous cred to the Big Bang, why would a intelligent designer do all that, to test us? To see how long we could ignore whats in front of our very eyes?
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
This is straight out of the Bible. Do you agree with it? Does killing homosexuals appeal to you? Of course it doesn't, so why do you stick to a story claiming that the Earth, was created in 7 days, in 4004 B.C.E.? You bible-thumping creationists have decided to pick and choose your beliefs based on nothing more than convienence.
You act like there is no transition between the animals, you mentioned archyopteryx, an animal that is a combination of a reptile and bird. It shows the transition. In fact, T-Rex infants still had feathers from their avian ancestors.
Let me give you an example of how simple evolution is. Hunter-gatherer situation, somebody is born smarter then the other **** Erectus's. This **** Erectus has had a gene that mutated him, making him smarter. So, he's able to kill more antalope, and has 4 children, 1 of whome dies in infancy.
So his 3 surviving children carry his intelligence gene. They survive like he did, making use of it in the wild and having more offspring then the average **** Erectus. So the gene pool has gotten a little more intelligent, and the species as a whole has moved forward. Dispute that, bi tch.
Also, WE HAVE OBSERVED NATURAL SELECTION. Well, actually we've observed artifical selection. In fact, The Origin of Species begins with Darwin talking about Artifical Selection. Artifical Selection works alot like Natural Selection. Except that the humans choose that traits they want to be passed on. Thats why cows nowadays make 10X more milk then they used to. Thats why sheep carry far more wool then "wild" ones do. Wild is in quotes since wild sheep don't exist anymore.
The problem with you creationists is that you set out to prove an agenda. You weren't raised with an open mind, and now everything you do is with the goal of proving what you were raised on is correct. But what your parents told you to believe in may NOT be correct. Try thinking for yourself, try keeping an open mind.
Look, remember at all times, how amazingly old the Earth is. It took half a billion years for Bacteria to emerge. After that, it sped up a bit, but Evolution is slow. But it works, and its what happens. If your gonna dispute Evolution, your taking on alot of fields of science, and alot of brilliant, well educated people. I mean, for Evolution not to work, Geology most be a crock, and that goes for paleontology, carbon dating (Not litteraly its own field.), cosmology, much of astronomy, pathology, and alot of archaeology. Just know what your getting yourslelf into.
I rather just not believe in anything really strongly because nothing can or cannot be proven.
It could go both ways. Both evolution and God could be true. Both evolution and God could not be true. One of them could be true or we are just not wise enough to know the truth.
You never know God could have created evolution and evolution could have created on itself because God gave it the free will to do anything it pleases.
X-MEN!!!! OMG MUTANTS OH NO WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!
That said, everyone sucks and why do we even talk about anything because everyone here (myself included)is really pigheaded and likes to diss everyone. So why do we even bother? just wondering why y'all waste space, time, and energy fighting with people that will never listen to you.
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