For any athiests in here, I'd like to hear your reasons/logic as to why you believe what you believe. And on the flip side, If you believe in a God explain your reasons.

Honestly I think there is a lack of evidence with whether a God exists or not.

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This is self contradictory, unless you believe "atheist" to have a different definition other than, a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

An atheist is one who has no belief in life after death. They believe we will die and that is all.

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I don't have much against christianity



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I dare you to find an uneducated atheist and an uneducated christian. Now which do you suppose would be harder to track down?



I find these two statements to also contradict. You have levied many attacks on Christianity sense I've been active on these boards. It would seem you have much against Christianity and Christians in general.

Thank you for taking this out of context. As I said before, I do not have much against Christianity, however, I do not like religion, in general. Typically I use Christianity as the example, as it is the largest religion in this world and the most prominent in my country.

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You don't have to be intelligent, but it is true that atheists in general have higher levels of education and are wealthier.



I am not sure this is true statement. If it were I would argue that levels of education does not necessarily dictate level of intelligence and neither does wealth, especially wealth.

Level of education can influence intelligence, obviously. Someone who has never been to school in their life is not going to have the same intellectual prowess as a person who has their doctorate. Intelligence is one of those iffy subjects, though.

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At least in terms of continuity, Hume at times shows an Agnostic or Deist tendency. Although this might argued it was to spare his own life for the time he lived in, but it doesn't seem to be in the style of Hume to do such a thing.

I'm afraid I think I have to disagree. Hume's career continuously suffered because he had the reputation for being an atheist. The Church of Scotland strongly considered bringing a charge of heresy against him, which would have resulted in his execution by hanging had it been proven. He only acknowledged his more cutting edge material on his death bed, and some of it was only revealed to be by him after his death. At the end of the already quoted 'Natural History of Religion' he wrote the following statement, which given the above problem of potential execution is reasonably strongly worded in the atheist vein: 'Examine the religious principles, which have, in fact, prevailed in the world. You will scarcely be persuaded, that they are anything but sick men’s dreams'

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I am not sure I can fully agree with the statement that a less than fully functional brain is no longer conscience. Let me be clearer on this before I continue. What about a deteriorating brain that is still capable of sensory perception? Or one still capable of interpreting pain? Surely these cases must exist or have existed. Are they conscience?

I think you may be putting words in my mouth there to some extent. I didn't say that people suffering from dementia cease to exhibit consciousness, but what I did say is that their consciousness is reduced. People born with certain brain disorders exhibit acalculia, which prevents them from understanding mathematical concepts. If such a subtle change in the brain can result in this, it provides good evidence that our consciousness is connected to our brains in an intrinsic and inalienable way. Take away our brains, and you've got nothing, or very little, left. From which, I then argue that it is probable that our consciousness ends with brain death.

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Does the belief in Objective moralist constitute an inauthentic life?

I think that various thinkers, and I'm thinking of both Sartre and Nietzsche here, would say that this is definitely the case. Any decision that a higher power makes for you is not really your decision, and therefore not meaningful. They would argue, I think it's fair to say, that objective morality does lead to an inauthentic life.

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You imply that no rational reason exists, when these reasons do exist, though you do not concede to them.

No, you see I was trying to turn this into a hypothetical. I did not imply that rational reasons exist - I was in fact trying to hypothetically prove the opposite. Say that I am a rational person, seeking as full an understanding of life, the universe and everything as possible. If I then reject the reasons put forward by believers for gods existence, it is presumably not too strong to say that there are no rational reasons for this case. At least, as rational as ordinary life permits.

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I would assume an atheist or atheist like product would believe they have free will

Actually quite a lot of atheists believe in a highly deterministic universe, and believe that free will is as much an illusion as the existence of god.

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I don't find this to be valid, as you are not a free thinking being.

But, regardless of whether or not I am a free thinking being, I must do what I am currently doing. That is sort of the beauty of the deterministic universe idea (I don't think that I believe the universe is deterministic by the way, but I find it very hard to argue against). People think that if all your actions are determined, then suddenly life becomes meaningless - but in fact it is no different to the way life has ever been or ever could possibly be. Another difficult area, I think. Maybe for another thread.

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I am not sure this is true statement. If it were I would argue that levels of education does not necessarily dictate level of intelligence and neither does wealth, especially wealth.

No, but then I wasn't arguing that having greater education or higher wealth does indicate raw intelligence, which is almost impossible to measure. However, being atheist does seem to correlate with social success and with measurable standards of intelligence like exam results. I refer you to the Cambridge Companion to Atheism, "Atheists; a psychological profile".

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In representative surveys of the U.S. population in the 1970s and 1980s,
the unaffiliated were found to be younger, mostly male, with higher
levels of education and income, more liberal

In Australia, secularists are much better educated than the rest of the
population, socially liberal, independent, self-assertive, and cosmopolitan.
In Canada, census data and national surveys show that those reporting
“no religion” are younger, more male than female, more urban than
rural, as well as upwardly mobile

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This number is so vast when you compare it to how small we are, the universe may as well be considered infinite

"May as well be" implies that it is not, but close. I don't think that in terms of infinity that something can be, "close enough", it either is or it isn't.

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I am not an atheist by the way. Just because I am capable of understanding that there is no 'god' doesn't mean I do not hope for something more.

This is self contradictory, unless you believe "atheist" to have a different definition other than, a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

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I don't have much against christianity

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I dare you to find an uneducated atheist and an uneducated christian. Now which do you suppose would be harder to track down?

I find these two statements to also contradict. You have levied many attacks on Christianity sense I've been active on these boards. It would seem you have much against Christianity and Christians in general.

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Presumably the counter-argument that you are considering is that consciousness may continue in a way that we are not aware of in brains are ceasing or have ceased to function?

I am not sure I can fully agree with the statement that a less than fully functional brain is no longer conscience. Let me be clearer on this before I continue. What about a deteriorating brain that is still capable of sensory perception? Or one still capable of interpreting pain? Surely these cases must exist or have existed. Are they conscience?

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What I mean by this is the classic existentialist idea that unless you live authentically and are responsible for your own actions, then your free will is meaningless. And this means that a life in which god decides what is right and wrong for you is a life which is inauthentic, and therefore objectionable.

Again, I think I need more clarification. Does the belief in Objective moralist constitute an inauthentic life? If so, then can any system of moral belief constitute an authentic life? If not, can you restate your previous comment?

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But I would just point out that it is generally agreed that Hume's position is a species of atheism

I'm not sure I can agree fully with this. At least in terms of continuity, Hume at times shows an Agnostic or Deist tendency. Although this might argued it was to spare his own life for the time he lived in, but it doesn't seem to be in the style of Hume to do such a thing.

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If I refuse to concede to certain arguments that I do not believe to be sufficiently rigorous in terms of logic, doesn't it follow that I should say that there are no rational reasons for this belief?

I think perhaps to state so boldly might be a mistake. You imply that no rational reason exists, when these reasons do exist, though you do not concede to them.

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So either god answers this prayer and I am no longer free, or he doesn't answer this prayer and the concept of prayer is thus demonstrated to be ineffectual at changing the world (my understanding of this is that theologians don't think this is the purpose of prayer, but that the majority of non-theologically trained Christians do believe that prayer changes things).

I would say to your first comment, I can agree that if your belief is that it is God who influenced your will to be inclined to believe in his existence, then your free will has been sapped. Of course assuming free will exists. Though if you do not believe in free will this comment (and prayer) is ultimately pointless.

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After all, from a Christian perspective, god made you who you are and then seems to condemn you for what you have become. Calvin understood this idea, and would actually agree with it.

Calvin would absolutely agree with you that if you are destined for hell there is no recourse. But from my understanding this comment was made in the context of humans having free will. If this is the case (as I would assume an atheist or atheist like product would believe they have free will) then God would have the right to condemn you for the course of action you so willing choose.

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The right of thinking beings. I'm afraid that once again I have to agree with Wolfie - authority is a flawed concept. To accept someone's authority without decent reasons is a very bad way to live one's life, and there is no way to find good reasons to follow someone's authority except by interrogating it.

I am afraid we might have to iron out soon our stances on free will and predestination:-P To argue this point from a Free will angle, you have raised an interesting idea. To argue from a predestination angle (as you seem to have implied in the previous comment[s]) I don't find this to be valid, as you are not a free thinking being.

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You don't have to be intelligent, but it is true that atheists in general have higher levels of education and are wealthier.

I am not sure this is true statement. If it were I would argue that levels of education does not necessarily dictate level of intelligence and neither does wealth, especially wealth.

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Well, not at their own houses, no. But not throwing stones at other peoples glass houses is not necessarily sufficient to keep them from throwing stones at yours.

In the context in which I made this statement, I wonder if you are agreeing with me or not:-P. I'll simply say that this comment wasn't aimed at you, or the atheist community as a whole.

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You know, the universe may not be completely and utterly infinite, but it might as well be.

Yes, and if you actually read what I wrote, you would understand this statement. Unfortunately, it appears to have gone in one ear and out the other. The universe, the visible one anyway, is 14 billion lightyears across. In one light year there are approximately, 6,000,000,000,000 miles. So multiply that by 14,000,000,000 and lets see you get 84,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles. This, again is only the distance of the universe we can see. This number is so vast when you compare it to how small we are, the universe may as well be considered infinite because no matter how hard you try, you will not reach the other side (if there is one). So the universe is infinite to us.

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'Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.'

Exactly.

I am not an atheist by the way. Just because I am capable of understanding that there is no 'god' doesn't mean I do not hope for something more. But I refuse to let that hope turn into pure belief.

I don't have much against christianity, more against religion in general. It is one of the greatest evils in this world. (When I say this I mean that I consider religion, money and power to be the 'main evils' as they are the primary reasons people kill). I dislike any religion that promotes torture and I am sorry to say that the Bible does exactly that, as well as other holy books.

Please do take note, that I am for the teachings of Jesus, not for the wrath of the omnipotent God.

Well, I think I'll throw as many rocks as I'd like to, as I do not live a glass house, but one made of wood and plaster. lol.

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is it that a brain that no longer functions properly is necessarily no longer conscious?

This is correct, and Wolfie went on to pretty much sum up the scientific reasons for that. Presumably the counter-argument that you are considering is that consciousness may continue in a way that we are not aware of in brains are ceasing or have ceased to function? That does seem open to a number of counter-arguments, but since you haven't even avowed that position yet I'm getting ahead of myself.

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I am not certain your free will is any more or less "given up" than that of a Christian's free will (if such a thing exists).

What I mean by this is the classic existentialist idea that unless you live authentically and are responsible for your own actions, then your free will is meaningless. And this means that a life in which god decides what is right and wrong for you is a life which is inauthentic, and therefore objectionable.

But as you so rightly point out, only if free will exists.

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One of your favorite philosophers (it seems to me :-)) David Hume, although not affiliated with any religion in particular has wrote in "The Natural History of Religion".

You're right; Hume is one of my favourite philosophers. I think he writes incredibly well, and very clearly despite the time gap between us. But I would just point out that it is generally agreed that Hume's position is a species of atheism, and he does dismantle the position that 'nature bespeaks an intelligent author' quite effectively.

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The reasons shared by Christians may not be reasons you concede to but you certainly cannot say with full knowledge that all Christians believe without reason.

I can see why you might interpret my remark as being forward, and I admit that I probably was being a little too aggressive in writing style, for which I apologise. However, just setting aside the actual situation for a moment, let us consider the above quotation. I consider myself to be reasonably rational - I've done my best to study logic, I apply rational thinking to my life and in my day to day activities. If I refuse to concede to certain arguments that I do not believe to be sufficiently rigorous in terms of logic, doesn't it follow that I should say that there are no rational reasons for this belief? That is, if I reject the rational reasons that these Christians believe in, and can demonstrate that refutation if necessary, am I not entitled to say that there is no rational reason to believe?

As I say, just a side point, not a justification or a defense.

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But I believe his prayers are being offered that you might come to know God, not that God furlough any eternal punishment.

But this was sort of my point. Unless this is a throwaway remark, what these prayers are designed to do is to overthrow my free will by making me into a believer (again, assuming that we have free will). So either god answers this prayer and I am no longer free, or he doesn't answer this prayer and the concept of prayer is thus demonstrated to be ineffectual at changing the world (my understanding of this is that theologians don't think this is the purpose of prayer, but that the majority of non-theologically trained Christians do believe that prayer changes things).

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What right does he have to send me to hell simply for being myself?

Despite the subsequent furore, I think this is a valid question. After all, from a Christian perspective, god made you who you are and then seems to condemn you for what you have become. Calvin understood this idea, and would actually agree with it.

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What right do you have to question God's authority?

The right of thinking beings. I'm afraid that once again I have to agree with Wolfie - authority is a flawed concept. To accept someone's authority without decent reasons is a very bad way to live one's life, and there is no way to find good reasons to follow someone's authority except by interrogating it.

And of course, it's terribly American to think like this. I am slightly surprised that more people on this forum don't think like this.

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Your assertion that you have to be intelligent to be atheist is laughable and grotesquely ignorant.

You don't have to be intelligent, but it is true that atheists in general have higher levels of education and are wealthier. And, to recycle a phrase from the inestimable John Stuart Mill 'Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.' Which obviously, as an atheist, I would want to argue is similarly applicable for Christians.

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I'll just say that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Well, not at their own houses, no. But not throwing stones at other peoples glass houses is not necessarily sufficient to keep them from throwing stones at yours.

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Originally posted by Wolfie:
And, as another note, I would just like to say, you cannot be intelligent and believe in God. The two are opposites.

This coming from the same person who made this comment

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You know, the universe may not be completely and utterly infinite, but it might as well be.

/applaud

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I dare you to find an uneducated atheist and an uneducated christian. Now which do you suppose would be harder to track down?

Ironic you would have such a hostility towards Christianity. I would say for the uneducated atheist I've already found one.

Your assertion that you have to be intelligent to be atheist is laughable and grotesquely ignorant.

I will not insult the entire atheist community, save one. I'll just say that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

And, as another note, I would just like to say, you cannot be intelligent and believe in God. The two are opposites.

Anyone who is truly intelligent and objective knows that there is no omnipotent being. It's just people being so scared of death and not existing that they come up with the faith crap so they won't feel afraid of death.

I do not fear death even though I know most likely, nothing will happen. I am not going to waste my life praying to something that isn't real.

These are simply the facts of life. You can same I am biased or whatever you like. But these are merely my observations.

I dare you to find an uneducated atheist and an uneducated christian. Now which do you suppose would be harder to track down?

Authority. Why should God be allowed to send someone to hell simply for being who they are? Isn't that exactly what a dictator does? I have the right as a free-thinking individual to question anyone's authority, regardless of power. It is my free will that gives me this right and I will use it if anyone ever thinks that they have power over me or that they have the right to torture me for being myself.

That's why I believe that if God is real, he is an evil tyrant and a liar who likes to torture the people he created.

Several reasons, such as...

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What 'logical' reason do you have to believe in God?

One such reason I have is our open topic on the Kalam Cosmological Argument. But I have several reasons to believe in the existence of God, though I feel perhaps the lack of briefness on these reasons would make them pointless to post here.

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What right does he have to send me to hell simply for being myself?

What right do you have to question God's authority?

Man, you know what, here's my thing. I just don't care. I don't care what will happen to me when I die. What will be, will be. What I care about, is the near future and especially the present, as it is the only time you have to affect actually affect your life. Why should I waste my precious years on Earth worshipping a being that cannot save people from destruction and sentences them to be tortured? You know what I do on Sunday mornings? I work, but if I wasn't at work, I would be reading a book or studying the world or doing something that will better who I am as a person. To me, going to church is just a chore that may or may not affect my position on the naughty/nice list, so I'd rather be doing things for me.

What Brehon is saying, is that who we are, our likes and dislikes, our personality is controlled by synapses in our brain. Take away the electrical impulses and the person goes as well. Neurons have a lifespan of about 80-90 years; as they start to die, the person begins to experience dementia. This is why old people seem to 'lose' it the older they become. The cells in their brain that made them who they used to be are dying, which in turn causes them to behave very differently than how they did in their prime.

MMm, on an interesting side-note, a group of scientists hope to have age-reversal in 25 years (assuming things go as planned). This means we could easily live to 150 or longer even. I know this is completely unrelated to this topic, but I was reminded of it when I was writing about aging. I don't know about any of you, but I am pumped.

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I truly feel sorry for all of you who do now know the power of believing in something.


I believe in plenty of things - human decency, the powerful emotional pull of the plays of Shakespeare and democracy. The power of belief is not alien to me.

What I don't entirely understand is why you feel so good about handing over your freewill to a god there is no rational reason to believe in. This seems to be giving up responsibility for your life to a degree that I think is absurd.

My sentiments exactly; why do you have to believe in a God in order to feel the power of belief? Why can't you believe in love or peace or knowledge? Why do you have to believe in some being and be ruled by him and only him? Isn't that sort of, oh I don't know, like a tyranny?

I just do not believe anyone has the right to judge another person, regardless of how much power they have. Who the hell is 'God' to say I am not a good person just because I do not believe in him? What right does he have to send me to hell simply for being myself? I suppose that this is the most irritating aspect of a 'god' for me. No one has the right to judge another's life.

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The reasons shared by Christians may not be reasons you concede to but you certainly cannot say with full knowledge that all Christians believe without reason

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I would also think someone who would feel offended at my often brash forwardness would not make such a comment as, "no rational reason to believe in".

What 'logical' reason do you have to believe in God?

Sorry intrude on this conversation but I would like to interject.

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I've finally worked out the atheist counter claim - degenerative brain diseases.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your argument here, but is it that a brain that no longer functions properly is necessarily no longer conscious?

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What I don't entirely understand is why you feel so good about handing over your freewill to a god there is no rational reason to believe in. This seems to be giving up responsibility for your life to a degree that I think is absurd.

I am not certain your free will is any more or less "given up" than that of a Christian's free will (if such a thing exists). The reasons shared by Christians may not be reasons you concede to but you certainly cannot say with full knowledge that all Christians believe without reason. One of your favorite philosophers (it seems to me :-)) David Hume, although not affiliated with any religion in particular has wrote in "The Natural History of Religion".

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The whole frame of nature bespeaks an intelligent author

I would also think someone who would feel offended at my often brash forwardness would not make such a comment as, "no rational reason to believe in". Perhaps, if you could conceive it, you might see how this statement is a touch forward as well?

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But, presuming you're a Christian, this makes no difference. god isn't going to let any one of the atheists in here off thier eternal punishments even if you do pray for us.

I think you might be misunderstanding, and if I am wrong please correct me. But I believe his prayers are being offered that you might come to know God, not that God furlough any eternal punishment.

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I believe that they are saying that any view of the after-life is highly flawed since it is impossible to truly know what happens after death until one actually dies.

I've been thinking about your opinion on this, but I'm too tired to trawl through all the spirituality posts to find it, and this seems like a prime opportunity.

You posited that we don't know what happens to the consciousness after death, and used this to posit the possibility that our consciousnesses may continue after our death. I've finally worked out the atheist counter claim - degenerative brain diseases. As our physical brains decay, as problems we don't fully understand develop in the most intricate parts of our bodies, our minds begin to degenerate. If this is true, and there is at least a highly significant link between physical brain function and consciousness as we have heretofore recognised it, then it is not rational to posit the continuance of consciousness beyond brain death.

Sorry, I know this is a bit of an abrupt turn of discussion, but as I say, it finally occurred to me.

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It is pretty depressing to hear that once you die maybe you are just asleep- end of consciousness.

Whilst your alive maybe, but once you are dead, you won't feel anything. Which has got to be better than eternal torment promised in a two-thousand year old book, or at least it is in my opinion.

OH, and MFR, the reason I do not believe the atheist position on the afterlife to be highly flawed is included in my response to Wolfie above.

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I truly feel sorry for all of you who do now know the power of believing in something.

I believe in plenty of things - human decency, the powerful emotional pull of the plays of Shakespeare and democracy. The power of belief is not alien to me.

What I don't entirely understand is why you feel so good about handing over your freewill to a god there is no rational reason to believe in. This seems to be giving up responsibility for your life to a degree that I think is absurd.

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I can't change any of your minds, but I do pray for you (whether you like it or not).

But, presuming you're a Christian, this makes no difference. god isn't going to let any one of the atheists in here off thier eternal punishments even if you do pray for us. And if your praying makes no difference to our personal decisions in life, then it simply illustrates what a flawed concept praying is. Meditation I have some respect for, because it puts your brain into a different state - but begging an omnipotent and omniscient being to change his mind about something, that seems futile.

I truly feel sorry for all of you who do now know the power of believing in something.

I am not going to explain why I believe what I do, it just is what it is. I can't change any of your minds, but I do pray for you (whether you like it or not).

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I believe that they are saying that any view of the after-life is highly flawed since it is impossible to truly know what happens after death until one actually dies.

Exactly this- sorry I didn't make myself clear Brehon. Anyway, I think it is more possible that humans when they are dead would just sense nothing- like being asleep sort of, without all of the nifty dreams.This is where many people don't want to think about.It is pretty depressing to hear that once you die maybe you are just asleep- end of consciousness. People who are in a religion are (mainly) scared of death and use religion in order to believe that they will somehow survive death in anyway possible.Furthermore this brings up the question of what would happen to a person who in a twisted way did something awful (9/11 for example) yet believed they were justified by their religion to do so? What then?

Well, would you trust the writings of another book written over 2000 years ago? Would you say that everything in the eygptian book of the dead is real?

Why is the Bible true but not other books written 2 millenia ago?

People change religious texts to have some level of control over the population.

Look at the church. For hundreds of years, it was in charge of most of Europe. Also, the only people who could actually read were those in the clergy. Now I am not saying that all of them did this, but it is very likely that the Bible was changed in favor of the Church, so they could stay in power. They participated in many evils during this time, so who is to say that they did not alter this book. No one else outside of the Church would know.

how do we know that the bible isn't just made up? from somebody's wild imagination?

I believe that they are saying that any view of the after-life is highly flawed since it is impossible to truly know what happens after death until one actually dies.

I would have to say, though, that atheism is not 'highly' flawed, but is the most logical of all the possibilities. However, humans seem to fear not existing more than anything else so we hope with all our hearts that this is not true, this hope turns into belief, which turns into faith.

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As for God being a liar and a hypocrite, he has reasons for why he does the things he does. If you actually read the bible (without judgment), you would see that everything he says and does is for a purpose.

I thought I'd just bring up one or two little tales that the Bible is full of, and constitute the reasont that I find the Bible distasteful at best.

The Story of Japhthah, Judges 11:30-1, 34-5

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30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

And then, in the New Testament, God decrees that sacrifice of this kind is not necessary. What kind of ultimate god causes someone to be killed and then withdraws the purpose behind it?

I'm afraid that I can't recall the name of a prostitute that appears in the Bible, but, in summary, she follows her lover and sleeps outside his door. He emerges the next day, rapes and kills her, then sends her dismembered corpse to the various tribes of Israel.

Yeah, good book for morality, the Bible.

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Religion is highly flawed yet so is atheism.

In what way is atheism highly flawed?