Hey there Dante. I don't think I've seen you before. Welcome to the discussion.

"Massive beasts of the number and variety of dinosaurs woud warrant a little more than a passing refrence."

Why would it warrant more explination? The Bible(which is what we're arguing over) doesn't go into any depth on any animals, period. Why would dinos be different?

"Given what we factually know about the periods of development on earth and the space of millions of years between the earliest dinos and the most recent 65 million years ago. Based on this distinction in time and the relative recency of human remains (along various stages of evolution nonetheless) establishes a visible timeline even beyond carbon dating - which, I assure you is accurate when we're talking thousands and millions of years (you can't carbon date a buried barbie doll, but a fossil whose carbon has had time to decay can be relatively accurately dated)."


So, the dating is accurate, only if we have a preconcieved notion that what we're trying to date is ANCIENT? So, hypothetically, if what you're trying to date is actually younger than this preconception, it'd make the object look TONS older than it really is, right? Also, I may just not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but how can Carbon dating give an accurate age for something if you don't know how much Carbon you started with?


"Anecdotal evidence about Shakespeare (only one historical figure) does not an argument make.
You're going to need to provide a little more than that at least if anyone but those of your ilk take you seriously.

Not to argue, but why? Shakespeare is a WELL-KNOWN historical figure. EVeryone's heard of him, and maybe even read some of his plays. It would seem difficult to doubt that Shakespeare does not exist. That said, since there is more evidence for the existance of Jesus, why is it so difficult to believe Jesus existed and did the things the Bible says?

"Secondly, there is a philosophical principle (whose name I have convieniently forgotten) which, in layman's terms, basically says: Why don't you believe in the big pink bunny in the sky? If there is equal odds of this being the correct thing to worship and you risk eternal suffering for not believing in Bunny why don't you start worshiping it?"

I think what you're pointing at is the fact that the supernatural is so foreign to us, on the very basis that we're in a NATURAL world, and it is SUPER-NATURAL. Unfortunately for the Bunny, he hasn't given his book to mankind, so that they would know about him. I know I've said it before, but the Bible is a VERY UNIQUE book. In the about 4,000 years it took to write, and over 50 authors, the book has NEVER been proven wrong when compared to history, science, etc. Also, it [b]NEVER contradicts itself. {/b] If this book were anything but from God, this would not be the case. Dante, you sound well read, compare the Bible's historical accuracy against the accuracy of secular writings from the same time. Man alone cannot write a book like this.

BTW-I think the Philisophical principle is "Pascal's Wager," but he used God as his example, not a Bunny Rabbit.

Watchman
Eze 33

This inevitably becomes a cration vs. evolution debate, not really religious. There arent really too many Hindus here defending Brahmin creation or reincarnation.
All the theists would have to do is prove one religion right and win over the atheists.
However, given the current situation, I will say my piece:
Massive beasts of the number and variety of dinosaurs woud warrant a little more than a passing refrence. Given what e factually know about the periods of development on earth and the space of millions of years between teh earliest dinos and the most recent 65 million years ago. Based on this distinction in time and the relative recency of human remains (along various stages of evolution nonetheless) establishes a visible timeline even beyond carbon dating - which, I assure you is accurate when we're talking thousands and millions of years (you can't carbon date a buried barbie doll, but a fossil whose carbon has had time to decay can be relatively accurately dated).
Anecdotal evidence about Shakespeare (only one historical figure) does not an argument make.
You're going to need to provide a little more than that at least if anyone but those of your ilk take you seriously.

Secondly, there is a philosophical principle (whose name I have convieniently forgotten) which, in layman's terms, basically says: Why don't you believe in the big pink bunny in the sky? If there is equal odds of this being the correct thing to worship and you risk eternal suffering for not believing in Bunny why don't you start worshiping it?

ProudConservative

"So if god created the world did he create dinosaurs millions of years ago before man? If so why is none of this in the bible which he inspired. Did he feel that these millions of years were not important? You have to believe in dinosaurs but the world is not that old right? So are allllll of the EVIDENCE and PROOF of dinosaurs a conspiracy against god? I think it must be. God wouldn't just forget these millions of years before man would he."

First off, I see two questions here, so I'm gonna try to answer one at a time.

1) How do you know the Bible doesn't talk about dinosaurs??? In the book of Job (chap. 40-41), it talks about two creatures: The Behemoth, whose "tail sways like a cedar." and the leviathan, as water-dwelling creature. First off why can't these be records of what we now call dinosaurs???

2) Who says the world is millions of years old? Just because our teachers tell us that doesn't mean that they're right. The dating techniques that scientists aren't as acurate as they'd like you to believe. And as for fossils, and other things that take millions of years to make, how do we know this is the truth? Why can't it be something like 200 years? It would take longer than a person's lifetime, both ways, so why is one more valid than the other?

"how do you know it is "Truth"? Have you talked to god and talked to the other religions of the world and all agreed that you are right? If you have talked to god I would like to know what he said to you."

Do you believe in William Shakespeare? Did you know that there is a controversy whether or not Shakespeare ever existed? Did you know that there is more evidence that Jesus walked this earth, died and rose again, than there is evidence for the existance of Shakespeare. The info on Jesus is documented by a Jewish historian known as Josephus. How's that for proof?

On all of these issues, I encourage you to check it out for yourself. Don't just believe what other people tell you; you obviously don't believe me. Check it out. Look at the facts.

" How can you not realize that there are many religious beliefs and that you most probably are wrong."

Why am I probably wrong? All things being equall, don't I have just as much of a chance of being right as any of the other religions? OR are you trying to politely point out nothing more than the odds?

Penmagic: What are the shades of grey that you see. Explain a bit more of what you mean, and I'll try to answer your question.

Watchman
Eze 33

I agree somewhat about the dinosaur comment. I definitely do not believe everything the Bible says. I totally believe in evolution. But I think I have to believe in some kind of greater being, or God. If not, I find life totally hopeless. Why are we here? There has to be a reason. We aren't just some little insignificant thing created for nothing. Without these beliefs, I don't think I would enjoy livig. There's a reason we're here.
I hate those super religious people that take everything in the Bible as the law of life. Like my uncle still believes that women are inferior and need to follow their husband's every word and command. Those people drive me nuts! But I still believe in God and basic concepts in the Bible.

So if one commits murder, rape any violent crime such as this but is really sorry and means it they get into heaven? Why? How can you commit these horrible acts but get into heaven?

Ok so what arguments are there to my dinosaur statements? I would like to hear what the bible says in dealing with diosaurs.
Islamic extremists while wrong view killing some as a good thing and believe their god is ok with this. How can you not realize that there are many religious beliefs and that you most probably are wrong.

I feel greatly honored by your comment. Thanks lol.

"how can you sin then ask for forgiveness and get into heaven such as killers do. If everyone who asks for forgiveness gets into heaven if it is real I don't want to be there anyways."
-proudconservative

The way I see it is that only if you truly want to be forgiven then you'll get into heaven. I think a lot of people might say 'I'm sorry', but it won't work unless you really mean it, which means that you've repented and reformed. If there is a God, which I believe there is, then I think he's wise enough to know who's telling the truth.

And Watchman, I'm not sure if I properly understood you, but I think we had similar ideas with the simulation thing. However, I still think that there are similarities between Christianity and other religions. For instance, one God, and moral values like not killing and being a good person. These less complicated ideals are what I think belong to what someone referred to as the true religion.

proudconservative, for once, I agree with you.

So if god created the world did he create dinosaurs millions of years ago before man? If so why is none of this in the bible which he inspired. Did he feel that these millions of years were not important? You have to believe in dinosaurs but the world is not that old right? So are allllll of the EVIDENCE and PROOF of dinosaurs a conspiracy against god? I think it must be. God wouldn't just forget these millions of years before man would he.

how do you know it is "Truth"? Have you talked to god and talked to the other religions of the world and all agreed that you are right? If you have talked to god I would like to know what he said to you.

If you want to worship your "all knowing, all powerful, all loving, perfect God" then go for it. I just do not. I find it funny you do not face the facts that your god is not the only possibility.

In many cases, I feel that the simplest explanation is the right one… but with the christian idea of God, it may be simple, but I don't think of it as an explanation. An over-riding force of good in the universe doesn't make sense to me. If so, then how do you explain all the bad things that happen in the world? It's too black and white, I see the matter of good and evil in shades of grey. If you've got white God on one side, and black Satan on the other, then how do you explain all the greyness in between? Good and evil are only two ends of the spectrum.
In a way, the idea of an all benevolant force in the world is too idealistic for me. I see the joy in life, don't get me wrong, I'm a big optimist, but I also see the darkness.
So I think that there is a different explanation, and maybe it is not less complicated, but I think it is less idealistic. For sure I don't know what it is and I'm not going to try work it out yet.

How is God too simple of an explination? An all knowing, all powerful, all loving, perfect God just makes it too easy? I don't understant the problem. You'd only believe it if it were more complicated?? (I'm not trashing you, I want to see why you feel this way.) Have you ever heard about this scientific principle known as Acham's Razor (sp?). What it says is that, "All things being equal, the simplest explination is probably the right one." What do you think?

Watchman
Eze 33

I don't believe in God simply because I don't need to. I don't feel the need for religion in my life… Also I feel that a single God being in control of everything is just too simple an explanation for the complex web of life which is all around. Sometimes I do feel there is more to the whole experience of life, some sort of spiritual level, but I think God is far too easy an explanation and if there is anything all-powerful, then it sure is too deep for me to figure it out.

However I do think religion is a good thing, in some ways I admire it in other people. But me and religion just don't mix, it's not part of my character.
That enough of an explanation for you?

How do you know the bible was written by over 50 people over 4'000 years? Have you ever met their ancestors? Or do you just believe what you learned in church when your parents made you go?

Ummm, PC, I'm kinda confused. What are getting at? Are you suggesting that because I personally have not been around for the last 4,000 years, I can't say that the Bible (or at least part of it) is that old? What about Shakespeare? He was before our lifetimes. If someone tells you about Shakespeare's life, do you believe them, even though they were not around at the time Shakespeare was? Do you go to Shakespeare's ancestors to see if they're telling the truth, or do you just believe them? Also, the age of the Bible is not a "religious" matter. It can be/has been studied my several Christians, and non-Christians. It's not what "I learned in Church" or "what my parents told me to believe." It's truth.

Watchman
Eze 33

Strangelove, keep you personal conversations off this board. Don't waste our space.

The moths unlike chameleons did not change over a matter of seconds on minutes butover generations. Scientists could also tell if they did have the enzyme like chameleons. Adaptation is a form of evolution only on a smaller scale. How do you know the bible was written by over 50 people over 4'000 years? Have you ever met their ancestors? Or do you just believe what you learned in church when your parents made you go? LOL just because it is different it is the true religion? That is just what christians would say, how can you sin then ask for forgiveness and get into heaven such as killers do. If everyone who asks for forgiveness gets into heaven if it is real I don't want to be there anyways.

watchman- Don't know if you got my noisemail, but i'll be back.

The moths cannot be dismissed that easily. If you took them off the trees and put them on a white sheet of paper they wouldn't change color. Scientist studying this collected them and it wasn't dirt either.
Yes evolution may be a theory, but it has never been proven wrong either, just like, as you often say, the Bible.
I do however agree with you a lot about the whole many religions being borne from another deal. But I wouldn't go placing my bet on Christianity, or any for that matter. All religions are unique, and have truth in them. Maybe none of them are the one True Religion. Maybe that is lost, or has never yet been found.

Adaptation is not evolution. If I paint a piece of wood green, and then throw a chamelion on top of it, the chamelion will change colors, right? Is that evolution at work, right before our eyes? No. How do we know that these moths don't have some sort of enzyme that helps them do the same thing as a chamelion, or what if the moths just got dirty like the trees. Any honest person will tell you, evolution is a theory. You can choose not to believe me on this, but this IS FACT. Evolution is theory. But don't take my word for it, check it out.

Also, true, there are other books that aren't proven wrong, and don't contradicet themselves. But how many of those books are written over a 4,000 year period, by over fifty people? Think about it. The odds that everything in that book still being true and relevant today are almost impossible.

And Heaven021, here's an idea I had, I don't know if it's right. My friend was reading this book Simulacra and Simulation, and it talks about these things called Simulacra, "copies without an original." It's like this. You start with the Truth, and then someone copies that truth, and then someone perverts (turns from its original purpose) that truth. After that, someone perverts the perversion, into a type of copy that does not resemble the original in the slightest. Does that make sense? If not, I can try and explain it again. Well, who's to say that most of the world religions are simulacra of the one True religion? You know, people take the true religion, and twist it into what they want it to be, and then the twisted one gets twisted, and before you know it, you have a completely different religion. This might explain why there are similarities between religions. That said, that doesn't mean that the True religion is gone, either, it just means it doesn't look like the copies.

The interesting thing in this, is that Christianity is unlike all other religions on the planet. The world religions enforce a set of rules, and say that you might get to heaven if you follow the rules like a good person. Christianity, however, says there's nothing YOU can do to get to heaven. God himself came and opened the way to heaven for us. Other religions talk about rules, Christianity is all through a RELATIONSHIP with God. Could this be the True religion?

Watchman
Eze 33

"First off, you don't have to believe in God. It's your choice. That said, not all choices are right"

So are you stating that my choice is not right? Maybe yours is not right, maybe no one is right at all.

Actually evolution is proven and there are examples around us which god has nothing to do with. In englad before much pollution there were white trees (aspen?) and white moths. After
pollution effected the trees and turned them browner the moths became brown as well to blend in and not get eaten. Is this only chance or coinicidence? I think not.

Other religios books also are not contradicted, nor are other non religious books. Just those whom do not believe what it says.

We're not proving what we believe to each other

You were talking about proof as well if you would read your post farther down. Ok, if someone tells you something outrageous do you just believe them until there is proof it is not true or do you wait for proof to believe them?

What do you believe in Dr? Are you a member of a particular religion?

And remember everybody:
IF IT'S PROBABLE IT'S POSSIBLE

The matrix is a great movie and is relevant here as someone, I don't remember who already pointed out.

Also, Watchman, I think that are many similarities between the many religions of the world. I think that they are all connected in someway, and that they've derived throughout history from one ultimate religion into the many different customs and beliefs we have today. Just like a story gets changed a little as it's passed through time.