Sorry for the late response, all. But I doubt I've been missed *sigh*

Anyway, outspoken, I'd like to reply to your last post involving me. You posted that awhile ago.

First off, I am not against free thinking. I think some religions put a strain on those who follow it. They're fed something by the church and authorized the believe it. If they don't, their ultimatum is going to Hell. Hmm..

"Oh, and Unity does not equal peace (necessarily) There is a way to be individualistic and still have peace"

I agree. I value my individuality, but I cannot deny that I am part of a larger sect. I share beliefs with many people, and "unity" is just my way of stating that I'm part of something.

I didn't mean to offend you, if in fact I did

I'm something of a quasi-atheist. I don't believe that the existence of "God", as expressed by Christianity/Judaism/Islam, is at all necessary or predetermined by the structure of reality. A supernatural being composed of infinite goodness, wisdom, and power...*shrug* I just don't find it reasonable. As for the dubious evidence of divine intervention (miracles), I don't buy it. At times it seems that I've led something of a charmed life (I've caught some awful lucky breaks), but I don't think it's any "God" bringing it about...more the random vagaries of fate, as I've taken some hefty crapola from the universe too.

I do, however, believe that there's something, some kind of connection or bond between all humans that transcends our physical bodies and binds us all together. Maybe it includes the rest of existence as well, as with Lucas's "Force" concept. So, I suppose if you wanted to, you could interpret that as a form of "God". But I don't. I think it's just the thing that binds us together, what makes us special beyond other creatures(aside from society and such).

Overall, I'm mostly a secular humanist, but I do have a spiritual side. It's just not very pronounced, is all.

I belive in God for many reasons. I belive in God because He has saved me and some of my family members and I have seen Him work wonders in people's lives. Why would I not want to belive in something like that? I belive in Him because I have felt Him in my heart and in my life many times. I think that people who are atheists are going to get a rude awakening one of these days. And that day is coming sooner than we think. You belive what you wanna belive and I'll belive what I wanna belive, it's as simple as that.

1. upbriging- i come from a long line of Christian people
2. he worked miracles in my life
3. he changed 1 member of my family, theat member of the family thought he was a failure and that God could never forgive him
4. If he is real and there is life and death, I would rathr go with the conviction than to not and get an rude awakening when I die
5. the promise of eternity is way too good to be true and I believe it

Christians will be persecuted even more during the last days and will even be killed for not following the immoral, satanic society (mostly during the Great Tribulation).


I can safely say, without a shadow of a doubt, that what I believe (Christian faith) is the absolute truth and the way to peace after death.

There might be some people searching for some sort of truth and could possibly stumble upon one of my forum posts and then maybe they might look into what this "truth" is that this guy (me) is speaking of.

dauben i have respect for you and your conviction. people are scared of what they don't know or understand.that's why they criticize and that's even why people get such fullfilment out of religions in the first place. being submissive is an underrated emotion. it's comforting to have belief. it elliviates the questions, like you "accept now" or changed your skin. i'm not an atheist, because that's to easy of an answer for me to accept. i don't know what label to put on my spirituality.

to me jesus was the ideal rolemodel for how people SHOULD live. and back in those times especially, let alone today, he is truly a special person, philanthropist, and (dare i say) philosopher. that's how i see it anyway, i can't prove anything of course.

dauben you said, "The Bible also states that followers of Jesus will run into tough times; ridicule, hatred, and constantly have to answer to unbelievers." when has it ever NOT been like this??????? or do you think that its extra ordinarily out of control in the present?

Proud, you claim the Bible has contradictions and all this other nonsense, yet have you even sat down to READ the book you are so quick to bash?

Well, I really don't remember the points you made, so if you would, show me where I didn't answer the questions.

You can pick, pick, pick at the "questionable" things of the Bible, yet you yourself probably haven't even read.

Where did the different races come from? I don't know to be honest with you. I haven't even read that much into where the races came from.

I've read through different faiths and beliefs and couldn't find what I was looking for. I was an atheist myself at one time.

Millions upon millions of people can attest that they HAVE found truth in the Bible and this man we call Jesus.

So are you dismissing them as a bunch of lunatic fanatics who have nothing better to do but sit around and dream stuff like this up?

The written testimonies of these people mean nothing? They're just worthless?

It helps if you research your "opponent" before spouting off. And don't get me wrong, these are very valid questions, but how can you learn if you don't take the time TO learn?



God said He created EVERYTHING; the stars, the oceans, the mountains, the animals ...

Animals being ALL animals, including dinosaurs.


Faith isn't the only evidence I have to fall back on. What about the world events taking place right now...as we speak, there have been and there are world leaders discussing their intent for a final One World Government.

This has been prophesised in the Bible.

The euro currency has a depiction of a woman riding what looks like a lion.

The SAME exact description is in the Bible (Revelation).

Many believe the European Union (where the euro is made famous) is this FINAL world government.

The Bible also states that followers of Jesus will run into tough times; ridicule, hatred, and constantly have to answer to unbelievers.

I think it's pretty courageous to be able to stand up for what you believe in.

I believe that Jesus Christ and the Bible are the absolute truth that I would take a bullet for it. I am that confident that after I die, I would go to heaven.

How many people do you know are that "crazy" to be able to stand up so strongly for what they believe in that they would DIE for it?

I don't know even that many Christians who would.

But I would.

the bible contradicting itself and you never choose to even touch my points where I showed it did contradict itself Joey you just seemed to not care about those statements which you know you can not answer...of faith huh? faith is a way of saying you have no proof as if you have evidence faith is no longer needed, yet if you have faith you must then not have evidence. so basically you are blindly following something that you makeup to make you a stronger person and if that is what you need to get through difficult times then by all means continue to do so. and one should prove what does exist not what doesn't. also why if adam and eve were the first humans were different races, religions and ideas spread and christianity being the last. why were they not christian and have kids which then had kids and were inbred and all be christian? why was christianity not spread by these first man and woman? where did dinosaurs come from in the 6 days to create the world? were these millions are years not real? is scientific carbon dating fake?another conspiracy by the government possibly?what about the human skulls found which are older but as we find more and more they get more similar to us today as they get closer to our time, is this not evolution which was proven by Darwin? If one could live thousands of years do you think that evolution would not be proven to a greater extent? Or do you have your religious blinders on which cause you to say "no because god...." lol laughable.

Well I would like to apologize to all of you for sounding so harsh and "forcing" my beliefs upon you all.

I hated the fact Christians would always "tell" me things instead of trying to talk it out with me.

If anything, people need more friends and more support.

Sure, I don't follow the same belief system you all do, but I shouldn't go around blasting it at every chance I get.

I'm not the one to compromise my beliefs or values, but just take this as an apology - nothing more, nothing less.

And if you guys ever want to talk about anything (anything at all, not just YouthNOISE-related), give me an e-mail or IM.

joeydauben@hotmail.com

AIM: joey75154


Christians who come across judgemental and forceful are just hurting the chances of bringing new people to Christ.

Thanks for listening.

Joey, I believe enough has been said on your "prove God doesn't exist" remark, however I will add my tale of turning to atheism.

When I was 12 years old, I tried to kill myself for the first time. I was extremely sick for a day, to the point where I was throwing up blood and could barely move. After that I recovered fairly quickly.
Two weeks ago, I overdosed and again, I was very sick. What brought me back? Well, by throwing up, I purged my stomach of all that was in there. Eventually, the drugs left my system (sleeping helped dull the effects). I brought myself back, because when I got up, I realized I wasn't ready to die quite then.
Oh, and this: Prove to me it was.

Now, gemini, I find it rather amusing that you are trying to educate an atheist on her own religion. I am well aware that atheism is a religion (as it is the one I practice) however to suggest unity is to suggest conform, which is almost against free thinking, which I strongly believe in. I have scruples with "Christians Unite" as much as anything else. Oh, and Unity does not equal peace (necessarily) There is a way to be individualistic and still have peace.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in god. People scold and scorn me because of it. I'm sick of the looks people give me when they find out. I'm sick of the penetrating stares filled with pity that point at me everyday. In response to you, Joey, yes, I have witnessed my own death. I have seen hell. I have written my will. I have tried to take my life six times. When everyone finds out I'm only fourteen, they start to praise God that I didn't die. Please do not take offense at this, but I do not believe God is the one who saved me. I didn't save myself for me, I didn't even save myself. My friends are the ones who saved me. I knew that by taking my own life to end my suffering would only cause suffering in those who care about me. I had enough sanity to stop myself, but I am still depressed, and I am slowly coming closer to the line where I know I will snap. No. You're right. I can't prove God doesn't exist, but that doesn't give anybody the right to try and force their religion upon me. Sorry. This has been one of those things that I need to vent on.

I apologize for seeming like a "conformist." I respect -all- religions, so why can't Christians and other religious groups not accept mine? Isn't that a bit hypocritical? If they could say "Christians Unite" or something, I seriously doubt anyone would have had any qualms about that. But Atheism IS a religion, so I stand by my "unity" remark. Unity equals peace.. or some crap like that.

Welcome to the world of a cynic.

I've always been miffed when people challange atheists to prove that God doesn't exist. It's not really a good point because it's extremely hard to prove that something doesn't exist.

For example, I could bury a pen somewhere on the Earth, any random spot, at any random depth. Then I could say to you, prove that the pen doesn't exist. They couldn't, because unless they map and dig the entire surface of the planet, every cubic centimeter, then the pen could always be somewhere else. It's up to me, the person who claims the pen exists, to go and dig it up, thus proving the thing actually exists.

religon is so abstract, that when ever i hear both sides (atheism and christianity which i grew up with and ended up resenting for enstilling so much fear into me) i get confused. i don't want to go to hell; but i honestly and literally can't say, "god exists". i'd be lying to my self if i said i knew he\she does.

personally i'd rather just be a hindu cow or something; eating grass all day long. maybe live on an island, and fish all day long..... have a dog running up and down the beach maybe. but no. we gotta argue about religon all freakin' day (whos winning i wonder??)

anyway, dauben you said, "Prove God doesn't exist."

we shouldn't start that kind of arguing because it won't PROVE anything. it's a fallacy (ad ignoranum or something). just because something can't be proven false doesn't make it truth by default. that goes the other way too. it's a flawwed point for both sides if it's the point your making.

Prove God doesn't exist.


Prove that it wasn't God who rescued me from a drug overdose.

Prove to me that it wasn't God who showed me the depths of a fire-filled Hell in late July.

Prove to me that Jesus Christ did not live.

http://www.joeydauben.com/Pray.htm


Though I respect your beliefs, I find it very hard to believe that it WASN'T God who gave me my talents and who saved me from dying that July weekend (you'll have to read the deal on that link; it's short)...


I've tried other religious faiths, beliefs...I was an atheist. I was involved in drugs, sex, alcohol...

I was all of those things...I even worshipped myself.

I mean, there has to be a reason that millions of Christians are just DYING to get a hold of people and to bring them to Jesus Christ.

There has to be a reason the Bible is the world's best-selling book.

There has to be a reason Christianity is the world's largest faith.

I've seen everything else and I didn't find CRAP.

I truly found Jesus Christ when I was almost dead. Praise God - because if it weren't for that "deity," I wouldn't be here.


Besides, things that are happening now, as far as current events, were predicted in the Bible; even secular Biblical scholars have proved that.

Secular as well as atheist scholars have proved Jesus Christ did live.

So all of you are saying that the ones who witnessed what went on (miracles, sermons, etc.) were just lunatics and liars?

geminiangel, that's such a horrible thing to say. It is much better that each person, each free thinker remain that way, instead of becoming one of a uniform blob. Unity is for conformists.

I see much greater a reason to be atheist than to believe in a deity. As far as I can see there is no proof of God or Christ. On the other hand it it perfectly fathomable to understand how man could create God. Who wants to believe they die to nothingness? Why not create a great diety to worship to guarentee us happiness when we die. What better a reason to pray and worship. That peace of realization that once life is over paradise awaits is one of the best ways to quiet one's natural inclination of fear toward death. That is a short example of why Atheism is much more realistic an idea than any type of religion.

Atheists Unite! Or something..

Sorry but I just find that view irritating Joey, I can't help it.

Little kids dying, now, I know some kids are irritating but generally they're an innocent bunch, yet plenty of them die, or have horrible stuff happen to them such as being physically abused. Or bad stuff happening to babies. Babies don't know how to sin!
I don't believe in God because it doesn't make sense to me. Too much bad stuff happens, and that doesn't mean I'm a pessimistic person, I happen to enjoy life and I think there is much beauty in the world, I'm truly greatful for that. However I don't think that life is in any way fair. Terrible stuff happens to some very good people (even christians!).
I sometimes feel there's a great power behind life itself, everything, the way things are intricately balanced, but I don't think the power is good, I don't think it's bad, it's just pure enormously unimaginable power. I don't think that's 'God' because the idea of God is that he's a) good, b) perfect, c) on mankind's side. Many other things as well, it probably goes all the way through the alphabet, but I'm not an expert on the idea of God.
To sum up… Hi, I'm an athiest.

Becca, I'm going to try to explain this to the best of my abilities, so bare with me.

Throughout the Bible, God uses certain judgements to get people to learn - his judgement.

Throughout the Bible, God uses certain situations in order to bring about a change in the world - for example, the Flood (caused by man's ever-increasing sin - and even scientists have proven there was a global flood).

God is a loving God, yes. He is also very angry when people turn his back on Him.

How many millions of Africans are Christian? Just give an estimate...

2 million? 20 million?

I truly believe that the AIDS virus is being used as a "lesson." And please let me clarify that there are thousands of people who get infected all the time without having had sex. Sorry I didn't mention that earlier. (in the Bible, the book most critics have never even read or read enough, God gives SATAN the authority to do horrible things, including plague and disease, false religions, etc.).

God is not "punishing" anyone; the people turned their backs on God; people - by THEIR actions and by THEIR choosing, continue to turn their backs on God, resulting in the absence of God's love, God's mercy and God's forgiveness.

You're right, it's not fair that that the little children should have to suffer for their parents' sins. But the Bible also states that Jesus (a.k.a. God) loves little children - children are innocent and are precious.

In other words, I believe those children will be saved - I truly do.

becca, you're totally right when you question why people can't be accountable for their actions.

Accountability and responsibility have been completely barred from our vocabulary.

It's always someone else's fault; nobody wants to be accountable or responsible.

But there are two forces directing everyone's lives. Good and evil. You don't have to be a Christian to know that.

You help out the poor; that's good.

You kill someone; that's bad.



Judgement Day will prove such a thing. Every knee shall bow and every mouth shall confess that Jesus is Lord.

And when Jesus Christ condemns someone to eternal punishment, you can bet your money that accountability and responsibility will not be present.

"...but, but God it was my friends who did this. How can you do this to me God? I didn't know."