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Are you comparing Hitlar to Einstein?
You fool!
That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.



The POINT was not to compare Hitler to Einstein. The names meant nothing. The point was to show that believing something someone says "just because they believe it" is stupid. If Einstein had also said that God didn;t exist, would you believe it? No, I don't think so, you're too attached to your Bible

"I also hear people who think we all live in a computer generated matrix that just seems real. I don't beleive that either.

Oh brother ... that was a movie. I hope you can distinguish between reality and Hollywood."



Um, hello? that's what I just said! that the idea of the matrix was ridiculus. The movie is cool, not realistic, but cool.

Are you comparing Hitlar to Einstein?
You fool!
That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

The time thing is not scientific; it is philosophical. Since religion is really a morass of philosophical ideas, the point stands.

I see no need to compare Einstein to Hitler. Bob was simply saying that even Einstein, who is widely considered to be a genius for his scientific work, believed in the existence of time.

About the matrix...some people really believe that, even before the movie came out. Some might have adopted this belief only after seeing the Hollywood movie, but there are also those who believed long before.

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If time as reality is good enough for Einstein, it's good enough for me. By what then do you measure change?

Hey, why not ... Hitler believed in Aryan superiority, it's good enough for me.



I also hear people who think we all live in a computer generated matrix that just seems real. I don't beleive that either.



Oh brother ... that was a movie. I hope you can distinguish between reality and Hollywood.

Brooke: you asked

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are there really people who believe they will sit forever in heaven with the lord

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Most definitely. I am one.

darkfox: I am confused about your stance. You said that the "Lord was established"...but provided information supporting the idea that God established everything, not the other way around. Maybe I misread, but could you please clear this up for me?

Let's see where to start. First off, man has never had the ability to believe in his own power. He had to rely on a belief that some greater power and organization was at work. The first ideas of chaos were simply mind-blowing and had no absolute ends. For this reason, it is possible to believe that men needed an absolute power. So, they came up with an omniscient, omnipotent manifest to control everything. For any person, it is hard to believe that something is not in control of your life. For this reason alone, the Lord was established. However, now we can throw science into the gears. Science states that something close to trillions of years ago, a cataclysmic event occured, known as the Big Bang. There are many questions as to what brought about this event. There is no true answer. There are no fossilized remains or tree rings to establish for us, whether or not it had happened before. The huge significance of the event is that it could not have been possible without huge masses of energy and huge masses of material. So, where did it all come from? The answer: Quite possibly, God. If he indeed exists, is it not beyond His power to create matter? Or energy? Finally, what about evolution? Scientist have already rubbed in that the circumstances that created life on Earth are, oh say, one in a hundred trillion. Now think about the impossibilities. There are thousands of things that could have gone wrong in the process. It had to be influenced perfectly in order for correct events to occur. Everything noted about nature signifies it as chaotic, even disorderly. However, everything about God is perfectly timed, organized, and made. So, what else but divine intervention to help the process along?
Mark

Why can't we just let people believe what they want to believe without condemning them to hell? Just an idea.

I happen to not be religious. I wouldn't necessarily call myself an active non-believer, I just don't think about the matter very much one way or another. This is my reasoning and is in no way meant to persuade anyone to join in my non-belief, but if it does, that's okay too: I think largely that gods in general are manifestations of human uncertainty. I think that gods are created by men to help ease the difficulty and uncertainty and meaninglessness of life and "creation," (although 'creation' sometimes implies some distant creator, in which I vaguely believe).

Why would we want to praise a god for human achievement though? Why would we "thank god" when something good happens, negating our own input in the course of human events? Why do we thank god for good things but not damn him for bad ones?

Its a cr*p shoot, people. Life isn't meaningless, it's what you make of it. Why spend time worrying about god or gods or hell or damnation...are there really people who believe they will sit forever in heaven with the lord? One man's heaven is another man's hell, so the hell you are condemning me to will be like Club-freaking-Med for me.

If time as reality is good enough for Einstein, it's good enough for me. By what then do you measure change? I also hear people who think we all live in a computer generated matrix that just seems real. I don't beleive that either.

You are not currently in hell b/c (here's a copy/paste from my previous post):

you need to remember that you are not completely separated from God as long as you are on Earth. He gives you blessings everyday… even if you don’t attribute them to Him. He sets Satan’s limits…hell is where God lets do Satan whatever he wants, and trust me, that would be hell! So yes, hell is just where God is not…but that means that because God is not there, people will live a horrible semi-existence.

OOH, OOH, OOH! *jumps up and down*

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God- like time, is something that you can't argue. Time exists because if it dosent, why is tomarro later than today? god exists because, if it didn't, nothing would be higher than anything else, nothing would be bigger than anything else, no living thing would be smarter or more intelligent than other living thing. God is the biggest, the highest, the smartest thing.

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Have you ever heard the philosophical idea that time is merely a human construct, something our minds impose upon the universe because that's how they're structured? Besides, denying God does not deny the concept of X having more of quality A than Y does... Infinity is an abstract concept, it has no actual existence except in the mind, but 7 is still more than 2, right?

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now if God (God according to christianity)had appeared, in all his majesty, and said "I am God". well, you would be forced to beleive in him. God gives us just enough evidence so if we want to beleive in him ( the Christian God) we can, resonably, do so. And if we don't, we can reasonable do so as well. Hell is knowing God was everything the christians said he was, and being seperated from him. You won't be able to blaim God. You say " God, I don't want follow your rules, I don't want to recognize your existance, go away" and God says, "ok, if you really want to be seperated from me"
All he is doing is giving you what you want. hell is seperation from God.

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So...I'm technically in hell right now? Doesn't seem too bad to me.

Now back to the top...what if it's not God, just some guy with a really BIG sound system and a horrendous amount of egocentrism?

And what evidence? If God wants me to believe in him/her/it, he/she/it can give me incontrovertible proof. After all, according to your logic, God made me; so it would know that I would want proof; if he/she/it wants me to believe that badly (which it should, given it is supposedly completely good, and as your so-called "hell" is reportedly completely bad, it would make sense that it would not want me there), it should be willing to put up the goods.

Oh, and what rules are you talking about? "Play nice"? I try to do that anyway, so why would God punish me? Or are you talking about some other rules, the ones that had a logical basis when created, but make no sense anymore, like eating kosher? Cause why would "God" want to enforce a rule that no longer has any basis in fact?

I Know.

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If you do end up “hanging out with a bunch of people who feel the same way I do for all eternity” (what you believe now, not what you could hopefully believe later in life) then chances are you guys won’t still believe the same thing…something tells me that God’s absence would jolt people into realizing there is a God…but then it would be too late. Also, in heaven, we will be righteous. We will be complete in Christ. We will also be humbled, though, because of the glory of God which we will live in.


Well, despite what you think is going to happen to me, the fact is that I don't believe in heaven or hell, so I'm not too worried.

First of all, you need to remember that you are not completely separated from God as long as you are on Earth. He gives you blessings everyday… even if you don’t attribute them to Him. He sets Satan’s limits…hell is where God lets do Satan whatever he wants, and trust me, that would be hell! So yes, hell is just where God is not…but that means that because God is not there, people will live a horrible semi-existence. If you do end up “hanging out with a bunch of people who feel the same way I do for all eternity” (what you believe now, not what you could hopefully believe later in life) then chances are you guys won’t still believe the same thing…something tells me that God’s absence would jolt people into realizing there is a God…but then it would be too late. Also, in heaven, we will be righteous. We will be complete in Christ. We will also be humbled, though, because of the glory of God which we will live in.

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Hell is knowing God was everything the christians said he was, and being seperated from him. You won't be able to blaim God. You say " God, I don't want follow your rules, I don't want to recognize your existance, go away" and God says, "ok, if you really want to be seperated from me"
All he is doing is giving you what you want. hell is seperation from God.

Well, if that's all hell is, why is everyone so worried? If God really does exist (which I very much doubt) I'm separated from him already, and I feel fine. Hanging out with a bunch of people who feel the same way I do for all eternity doesn't seem like such a bad thing. Much better, even, than having to put up with all those self-righteous people that will be populating heaven!

Wonderous bob, your explantion of why god exists doesn't convince me that god is conscious and has opinions ( which is what many people believe god is). YOur definition of god is this thing that makes everything happen, and is the reason why we exist. This is similar to my definition of nature. But please explain to my how the thing that creates us must be feeling

Bob, what you say does not prove Gods existance, and your idea of Hell is your opinion, I do not see how saying that God must exist because if he didnt nothing would be higher than anything else proves his existance, to many an athiest no creature is greater than another. Why do you think anything has to be the superlative? You cant say that athiesm cant be true because of a dictionary definition of something.

now if God (God according to christianity)had appeared, in all his majesty, and said "I am God". well, you would be forced to beleive in him. God gives us just enough evidence so if we want to beleive in him ( the Christian God) we can, resonably, do so. And if we don't, we can reasonable do so as well. Hell is knowing God was everything the christians said he was, and being seperated from him. You won't be able to blaim God. You say " God, I don't want follow your rules, I don't want to recognize your existance, go away" and God says, "ok, if you really want to be seperated from me"
All he is doing is giving you what you want. hell is seperation from God.

here is the deal-
if god dosent exist, then NOTHING can be, in any way, better than ANYTHING else. I think some of you misunderstand. God does not mean an old man with a beard. God- like time, is something that you can't argue. Time exists because if it dosent, why is tomarro later than today? god exists because, if it didn't, nothing would be higher than anything else, nothing would be bigger than anything else, no living thing would be smarter or more intelligent than other living thing. God is the biggest, the highest, the smartest thing.