So if god created the world did he create dinosaurs millions of years ago before man? If so why is none of this in the bible which he inspired. Did he feel that these millions of years were not important? You have to believe in dinosaurs but the world is not that old right? So are allllll of the EVIDENCE and PROOF of dinosaurs a conspiracy against god? I think it must be. God wouldn't just forget these millions of years before man would he.

how do you know it is "Truth"? Have you talked to god and talked to the other religions of the world and all agreed that you are right? If you have talked to god I would like to know what he said to you.

If you want to worship your "all knowing, all powerful, all loving, perfect God" then go for it. I just do not. I find it funny you do not face the facts that your god is not the only possibility.

In many cases, I feel that the simplest explanation is the right one… but with the christian idea of God, it may be simple, but I don't think of it as an explanation. An over-riding force of good in the universe doesn't make sense to me. If so, then how do you explain all the bad things that happen in the world? It's too black and white, I see the matter of good and evil in shades of grey. If you've got white God on one side, and black Satan on the other, then how do you explain all the greyness in between? Good and evil are only two ends of the spectrum.
In a way, the idea of an all benevolant force in the world is too idealistic for me. I see the joy in life, don't get me wrong, I'm a big optimist, but I also see the darkness.
So I think that there is a different explanation, and maybe it is not less complicated, but I think it is less idealistic. For sure I don't know what it is and I'm not going to try work it out yet.

How is God too simple of an explination? An all knowing, all powerful, all loving, perfect God just makes it too easy? I don't understant the problem. You'd only believe it if it were more complicated?? (I'm not trashing you, I want to see why you feel this way.) Have you ever heard about this scientific principle known as Acham's Razor (sp?). What it says is that, "All things being equal, the simplest explination is probably the right one." What do you think?

Watchman
Eze 33

I don't believe in God simply because I don't need to. I don't feel the need for religion in my life… Also I feel that a single God being in control of everything is just too simple an explanation for the complex web of life which is all around. Sometimes I do feel there is more to the whole experience of life, some sort of spiritual level, but I think God is far too easy an explanation and if there is anything all-powerful, then it sure is too deep for me to figure it out.

However I do think religion is a good thing, in some ways I admire it in other people. But me and religion just don't mix, it's not part of my character.
That enough of an explanation for you?

How do you know the bible was written by over 50 people over 4'000 years? Have you ever met their ancestors? Or do you just believe what you learned in church when your parents made you go?

Ummm, PC, I'm kinda confused. What are getting at? Are you suggesting that because I personally have not been around for the last 4,000 years, I can't say that the Bible (or at least part of it) is that old? What about Shakespeare? He was before our lifetimes. If someone tells you about Shakespeare's life, do you believe them, even though they were not around at the time Shakespeare was? Do you go to Shakespeare's ancestors to see if they're telling the truth, or do you just believe them? Also, the age of the Bible is not a "religious" matter. It can be/has been studied my several Christians, and non-Christians. It's not what "I learned in Church" or "what my parents told me to believe." It's truth.

Watchman
Eze 33

Strangelove, keep you personal conversations off this board. Don't waste our space.

The moths unlike chameleons did not change over a matter of seconds on minutes butover generations. Scientists could also tell if they did have the enzyme like chameleons. Adaptation is a form of evolution only on a smaller scale. How do you know the bible was written by over 50 people over 4'000 years? Have you ever met their ancestors? Or do you just believe what you learned in church when your parents made you go? LOL just because it is different it is the true religion? That is just what christians would say, how can you sin then ask for forgiveness and get into heaven such as killers do. If everyone who asks for forgiveness gets into heaven if it is real I don't want to be there anyways.

watchman- Don't know if you got my noisemail, but i'll be back.

The moths cannot be dismissed that easily. If you took them off the trees and put them on a white sheet of paper they wouldn't change color. Scientist studying this collected them and it wasn't dirt either.
Yes evolution may be a theory, but it has never been proven wrong either, just like, as you often say, the Bible.
I do however agree with you a lot about the whole many religions being borne from another deal. But I wouldn't go placing my bet on Christianity, or any for that matter. All religions are unique, and have truth in them. Maybe none of them are the one True Religion. Maybe that is lost, or has never yet been found.

Adaptation is not evolution. If I paint a piece of wood green, and then throw a chamelion on top of it, the chamelion will change colors, right? Is that evolution at work, right before our eyes? No. How do we know that these moths don't have some sort of enzyme that helps them do the same thing as a chamelion, or what if the moths just got dirty like the trees. Any honest person will tell you, evolution is a theory. You can choose not to believe me on this, but this IS FACT. Evolution is theory. But don't take my word for it, check it out.

Also, true, there are other books that aren't proven wrong, and don't contradicet themselves. But how many of those books are written over a 4,000 year period, by over fifty people? Think about it. The odds that everything in that book still being true and relevant today are almost impossible.

And Heaven021, here's an idea I had, I don't know if it's right. My friend was reading this book Simulacra and Simulation, and it talks about these things called Simulacra, "copies without an original." It's like this. You start with the Truth, and then someone copies that truth, and then someone perverts (turns from its original purpose) that truth. After that, someone perverts the perversion, into a type of copy that does not resemble the original in the slightest. Does that make sense? If not, I can try and explain it again. Well, who's to say that most of the world religions are simulacra of the one True religion? You know, people take the true religion, and twist it into what they want it to be, and then the twisted one gets twisted, and before you know it, you have a completely different religion. This might explain why there are similarities between religions. That said, that doesn't mean that the True religion is gone, either, it just means it doesn't look like the copies.

The interesting thing in this, is that Christianity is unlike all other religions on the planet. The world religions enforce a set of rules, and say that you might get to heaven if you follow the rules like a good person. Christianity, however, says there's nothing YOU can do to get to heaven. God himself came and opened the way to heaven for us. Other religions talk about rules, Christianity is all through a RELATIONSHIP with God. Could this be the True religion?

Watchman
Eze 33

"First off, you don't have to believe in God. It's your choice. That said, not all choices are right"

So are you stating that my choice is not right? Maybe yours is not right, maybe no one is right at all.

Actually evolution is proven and there are examples around us which god has nothing to do with. In englad before much pollution there were white trees (aspen?) and white moths. After
pollution effected the trees and turned them browner the moths became brown as well to blend in and not get eaten. Is this only chance or coinicidence? I think not.

Other religios books also are not contradicted, nor are other non religious books. Just those whom do not believe what it says.

We're not proving what we believe to each other

You were talking about proof as well if you would read your post farther down. Ok, if someone tells you something outrageous do you just believe them until there is proof it is not true or do you wait for proof to believe them?

What do you believe in Dr? Are you a member of a particular religion?

And remember everybody:
IF IT'S PROBABLE IT'S POSSIBLE

The matrix is a great movie and is relevant here as someone, I don't remember who already pointed out.

Also, Watchman, I think that are many similarities between the many religions of the world. I think that they are all connected in someway, and that they've derived throughout history from one ultimate religion into the many different customs and beliefs we have today. Just like a story gets changed a little as it's passed through time.

"Why if you have no credible proof do I have to believe in god."

First off, you don't have to believe in God. It's your choice. That said, not all choices are right, just like not all beliefs are true. As for the proof, I haven't heard any proof why not to believe in God.

"This also deals with evolution, ever heard of Darwin? He has proved many things which deal with evolution,"

Again, Darwin proved nothing. That's why it's called the THEORY OF EVOLUTION and not the fact of Evolution. Second, at the end of his life, Darwin recanted the whole thing. Don't believe me? Look it up. Third, modern scientists don't even use Darwin's information. All Darwin did was to point science in a certain dirrection, that's it.

"Did god sit down and say okay, now write this, now this? Man wrote all bibles."

Like I said, man physically wrote the Bible, but like I said, for a book that has been around for THOUSANDS of years, it has NEVER been proven wrong and NEVER contradicts itself. For just a normal book, that's pretty impressive. If that doesn't sound like a God thing, I don't know what does.

"We are here so why not a cosmic accident until you prove me wrong, why should I only have to prove you wrong?"

Ummm, let's think of it this way. We're not proving what we believe to each other. How about just explaining why you believe what you believe?

"This page was started to list why people were Atheist, not to try to get one to to believe in god, but thats what all christians do, they can't accept it."

The starter of this thread, DrStrangelove, is a Deist. He believes in God. (Which means that he disagrees with Atheists.) He's not a Christian. He could tell you just as well as I can, that you don't have to be a Christian to believe in God. He started this thread to discuss why a person does or doesn't believe in God.

I hope that clears up confusion, and answers your questions.

Watchman
Eze 33

Why if you have no credible proof do I have to believe in god. This also deals with evolution, ever heard of Darwin? He has proved many things which deal with evolution, so did god sit down and say okay, now write this, now this? Man wrote all bibles. But what about hindus and muslims, are you calling the majority of the world wrong as many christians do? We are here so why not a cosmic accident until you prove me wrong, why should I only have to prove you wrong? This page was started to list why people were Atheist, not to try to get one to to believe in god, but thats what all christians do, they can't accept it. Not to sure of your self are we?

lets not talk about fantasy movies like the Matrix, okay?

Proudconservative:

I admit that my example with the box didn't come out as well as it was in my head. Sorry.

My question is this:

You said: "Why if there is no scietific proof as of yet should I believe there is a god? There is also no proof what so ever of divine creation so perhaps you should realize that there is no god until religious proof is found." Ummm, what proof do you need? I mean, the world's here. We were either this cosmic accident that can't fully be explained, or we were created, right? I mean, it has to be one of those two. Also, to my knowledge, although literally written by man, the Bible is the inspired word of God. The Bible has NEVER contradicted or disproven. Tons of people have tried to disprove the Bible, but they've never been able to do it. Does that count as proof, or is that just a convenient coincidence? What do you think?

Watchman
Eze 33

Beekerthebeekbeek, are you sure I'm just like everyone else?

You are rambling and beating around the bush. If you stop with your wanna be matrix lifestyle and look at what is known by scientists on the subject you will understand. So if god does exist...even though i stated he might in my last post,if you would read it not scan it over, then what religion is right? What proof is there for any of it but man written books? If you go to court and say i have no proof but how do you know that we are really here and look in my magic box are you going to be found innocent? No uness O.J Simpson I guess.

Why assume all things are possible when it is known that they are not? Lets try to make sense and say within the world we live in huh.

In regards to the issue of proof, I have a question for you Proudconservative. What "proof" do you have that things you learned really happened? Or how about this: Assuming ALL things are possible, what proof do you have that you weren't just created last night, and all of your memories were created too. How do you even know that anything is real. Is it just things you can touch and feel, because how do you know that you are not dreaming all of this? Think a little bit about it before you act.

As for knowledge of God, here's an idea, ok?

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Let's say that the box is the realm of ALL knowledge that exists. Obviously, it is not possible for one person to know everything, right? For the sake of argument, let's say that the marked areas in the box are what you personally know. Isn't it possible that out of all that white area left in the box, that God could be there somewhere? If that's the case, He still exists, no matter if people believe in him or choose to believe that he exists. Does that make sense? (I hope the box doesn't go away when I post this, or else this point won't make much sense.)

Watchman
Eze 33

In science new things are being discovered everyday. There are hypothesis as to the creation of matter in the field of science as well as religiously, so I think it is only your thoughts on the matter which decide a persons beliefs. I accept that there may be a god but not as people think within diferent religions.
Why if there is no scietific proof as of yet should I believe there is a god? There is also no proof what so ever of divine creation so perhaps you should realize that there is no god until religious proof is found.