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The Israelis really don't care what the world thinks of them. They've shown that time and again.

Ture and nothing any one can do short of nuking them isn't gonna change that


I don't see a serious parallel between Israel and Iran. Israel is a state like irn in that it is religous but they do not go about sending fanatics with bombs strapped to them to primarily kill the innocent. They are defending themselves and have been for years now. The Israelis have made mistakes in handling the palestine situation but every nation has made such mistakes in time of war. Israel's primary concern is to kill of the palestinian militants and is they get poor intell and attack innocents...shit happens and accidents of that nature as I've said before occur in every conflict from revolutions to world wars.

and on concessions they gave the Sina Penisula back did they not? that's a whole bunch of concession right there.

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Do you have any kind of documentation for all this? I really can't see the Israeli military doing all this unprovoked, it would really hurt their world image.

If I did I would have put it all over the internet by now. The truth is it happened and you can accept that or not. I probably wouldn't, I'm just a faceless name on a forum... but it happened and a lot worse has been captured on tape and documented than the things I've listed.

The prison assault was completely rediculous. They're completely undermining the PA by stealing the prisoners right out of a jail, and then they'll turn around and blame the PA for not controlling Palestinian militants. The PA has no authority and no power in that area... and stealing their prisoners is just stupid. What does Israel want with them?

Lucpol, your post has really drawn a lot of parallels between Israel and Iran. Why do you trust Israel if you know they'll just do whatever the hell they want and ignore international laws?

Indeed clpo13, Israel does not follow the direction of the flow-quite the opposite. They as a nation are not afraid to stand alone agianst incredible pressures and odds. When they do something, they dont play around-they do it!!(recently indicated by the prison assault on the palestinian territory). AT least this way they do not appear weak to their trecherous neighbours.

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I really can't see the Israeli military doing all this unprovoked, it would really hurt their world image.

The Israelis really don't care what the world thinks of them. They've shown that time and again.

Both sides have their wrongs and rights. The Israelis like to terrorize Palestinian civilians, and the Palestinian militants screw things up for everyone else. It's an issue that will probably never be fully solved.

Oh come on. Why do you think Israel is attacking Palestinians? For fun? I agree that most Palestinians do want peace, but their leaders are doing nothing to support this desire. I ask again, what concessions has the Palestinian government made? I agree that Fatah was corrupt. However, what is Hamas going to do to encourage peace? I think recognizing Israel would be a decent start.

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hey were not attacking Israel for existing, they were attacking Israel for suddenly appearing in place of a country that ALREADY existed. Palestine was the country being attacked for existing.

Wasn't it a British colony? Israel is willing to give back land to the Palestinians.

Risk, we may be recieving "pro-Israel" propaganda in the US, but isn't it possible that you are recieving "pro-Palestinian" propaganda in the UK?

People on this thread seem to forget that there are innocent Israelis killed each day too. They are victims too.

well phantom being young american and naive you obviously have your yes closed to the acts commited by the israelis. every deep news report, many articles and eyewitness/victim accounts prove that israeil is commiting horrendous crimes and continues to terrorise and intimidate the palestinians. i saw devastating footage on a bbc report not long ago of a man trying desperatly to cover his son while hiding behined a small wall as israeils rain bullets all around, once the smoke clears their bodies lie lifeless...killed for what?

israel is a criminal state, why does nobody object? because the only ones with the power to object are the americans and theyre israels biggest ally and partner in crime.

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Palestine is an Arab nation

actually, it was British before the Jews moved in. It used to be Judea, then it was Palestine, and not it's Israel.

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At least half of my family lives in Palestine and I've heard a lot of stories about the Israeli army and how they treat children and civillians - the kind of stuff you won't hear on CNN or any other news station that takes a completely zionist approach. During the first Intifada my parents and my sisters were walking through a shopping district when a member of the Israeli military just started shooting rounds from the roof of a shop nearby. They were terrified and ran for cover with everyone else, but they were the only ones surprised. All of the people who live there are just used to scare tactics. A few years ago I had a cousin strip searched as he got off of a school bus - He was like 13. A couple years ago my uncle's house had every window broken by gunfire and they had to sit huddled together by a wall for about a week before things calmed down. And as Palestinian people, all they want is to stop being harassed. They don't care about the politics, they just don't want to be shot at a random checkpoint and shrugged off as potential terrorist. YOU are a potential terrorist. You are a potential serial killer, rapist, mass murderer... but that doesn't justify killing you.

Do you have any kind of documentation for all this? I really can't see the Israeli military doing all this unprovoked, it would really hurt their world image.

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The concessions are too few and the killing continues

But the west bank and the gaza strip were what Palestine was before the Israeli war of Independence. So what do you mean that the concessions are too few. I think they are too much. The Palestinian people should accept this concession of land before they get the crap blown out of them just like the Jordanians did to them.

I was reading this thread, found my post, remembered it existed, and noticed I made an error in there. I said that Reuben had his birthright revoked for the Dinah Scandal. Reuben was not even involved in the Dinah Scandal. That was Simeon and Levi, but they were just rebuked and forgiven. Reuben's birthright was taken away because he had an affair with his neice (I think...I think it was Levi's daughter).

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Originally posted by bluedemocrat:
But the Jewish people deserved a Jewish state. Israel is a place where all Jews can be citizens

Sure, if Europe was so concerned with the wellbeing of the Jews then by all means give them a state. But give them one of your states, don't just pick a weaker country off of the map and hand it to them.

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You really think those Arab nations that attacked Israel were justified? What did Israel do? It simply existed. It is unreasonable to attack a country for existing. That's ridiculous. Israel did not even have any expansion plans.

Yes, they were completely justified. Palestine is an Arab nation and, by no relation to anything Palestine had done in the past, a foreign power just decided to take over. You want to talk an unjustified attack, let's talk about that. They were not attacking Israel for existing, they were attacking Israel for suddenly appearing in place of a country that ALREADY existed. Palestine was the country being attacked for existing.

At least half of my family lives in Palestine and I've heard a lot of stories about the Israeli army and how they treat children and civillians - the kind of stuff you won't hear on CNN or any other news station that takes a completely zionist approach. During the first Intifada my parents and my sisters were walking through a shopping district when a member of the Israeli military just started shooting rounds from the roof of a shop nearby. They were terrified and ran for cover with everyone else, but they were the only ones surprised. All of the people who live there are just used to scare tactics. A few years ago I had a cousin strip searched as he got off of a school bus - He was like 13. A couple years ago my uncle's house had every window broken by gunfire and they had to sit huddled together by a wall for about a week before things calmed down. And as Palestinian people, all they want is to stop being harassed. They don't care about the politics, they just don't want to be shot at a random checkpoint and shrugged off as potential terrorist. YOU are a potential terrorist. You are a potential serial killer, rapist, mass murderer... but that doesn't justify killing you.

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And I said before, at least Israel has made some concessions. I don't see the Palestinian leaders doing that.

The concessions are too few and the killing continues. As for Palestinian leaders, Fateh was corrupt as hell and were stealing all of the foreign aid for themselves. I think that's why Hamas won this election, because Palestinians are sick of being taken advantage of. Hopefully this government won't screw everyone over so badly.

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The Israeli Army killed Palestinian civilians in retaliation to those suicide bombings. They didn't bother to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants.

Just as the Palestinians killed Israeli civilians...neither is right. However, what can Israel do?? Sit back and let their people be killed. I know that it just creates an endless cycle of violence, but even if Israel stopped retaliating there is no indication that the suicide bombers would stop. Also, it is so difficult to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. The suicide bombers are people who would be considered non-combatants.

And I said before, at least Israel has made some concessions. I don't see the Palestinian leaders doing that.

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Care to explain? Personally, I don't think that respoding aggressively to suicide bombers is terrorism.

The Israeli Army killed Palestinian civilians in retaliation to those suicide bombings. They didn't bother to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants.

Sounds like the US in Vietnam...but I digress.

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the jews live in europe, america, russia and so on. there are more jews in america than in israel, they could have survived nicely without the creation of israel, which was created via a violent campaign advocating terrorist attacks.

Yes, they could have. But the Jewish people deserved a Jewish state. Israel is a place where all Jews can be citizens

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The wars waged against israel were perfectly legitimate

You really think those Arab nations that attacked Israel were justified? What did Israel do? It simply existed. It is unreasonable to attack a country for existing. That's ridiculous. Israel did not even have any expansion plans.

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Israel is one of the biggest contributers to islamic terrorism, it has resulted in the deaths of thousands if mot millions of arabs, jews, americans, british and so on.

Indirectly, I suppose. But so is the United States and just about every other "westerrn" nation. But most of the blame lies with the surrounding Arab nations. The Arab nations started just about every war, and I believe that Israel only started a war as a pre-emptive strike.

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hey went on to perpertrate a terror campiagn which is almost as disgusting as the holocaust.

Care to explain? Personally, I don't think that respoding aggressively to suicide bombers is terrorism. Israel is at least trying to make peace. They will (if the Palestinians behave) give up land for the purpose of creating a Palestinian state. Israelis are willing to make concessions and I have yet to see what kind of concessions the Palestinians are making. I think recognizing Israel's right to exist would be a start.

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try telling that to the native americans.

The Native Americans in the US are almost totally Americanized. The only thing that remains of thier cultures is what has been supported by some traditions and, unfortunately, tourism. It's likely that in a few generations most of the Native American tounges and traditions will dissapear almost completely.

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You really think that a Jewish state was not needed? The Jewish people deserved a place where they could live. The Palestinians lost some of their land with the creation of Israel. They lost the rest of it later through war, right? Now Israel is trying to do make peace by withdrawing from some settlements.

the jews live in europe, america, russia and so on. there are more jews in america than in israel, they could have survived nicely without the creation of israel, which was created via a violent campaign advocating terrorist attacks.

The wars waged against israel were perfectly legitimate, so were the intervention of the middle eastern nations, as israel is a huge huge security crisis for the region as we have seen with the american alliance resulting in the rise of fundamentalism and the subsequent invasions of afghanistan and iraq. Without the creation of Israel the region could have developed away from the clutches of imperialist ambition after independence from france and great britian.

Israel is one of the biggest contributers to islamic terrorism, it has resulted in the deaths of thousands if mot millions of arabs, jews, americans, british and so on. It was a quick fix to the persecution the jews recieved in the war, and yet they went on to perpertrate a terror campiagn which is almost as disgusting as the holocaust.

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there is no longer a distinct Native American culture, whereas there was and still is a distinct Jewish culture.

try telling that to the native americans.

blue democrat-when i referred to the environment i meant-the naturew and animal habitats (food chains)etc. We may aid the weak-but overall that aid is minimal-the giants still dominate, especially with influence! Those governmnet laws that you mention...most of them are suited to the lobbyist at hand and therefore are not favourable for the lower man.

I think you can certainly make a legitimate arguement in favor of that. However, the difference is that there is no longer a distinct Native American culture, whereas there was and still is a distinct Jewish culture.

If the Jews deserve a country of their own, likewise don't the displaced Native American tribes deserve their own lands?

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Israel should never have been allowed to exist but now that it does it should remain alongside palestine.

You really think that a Jewish state was not needed? The Jewish people deserved a place where they could live. The Palestinians lost some of their land with the creation of Israel. They lost the rest of it later through war, right? Now Israel is trying to do make peace by withdrawing from some settlements.

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Well Jeremysroberts- interesting point you make!ou do realise that survival of the fittest theory is what our origins are based on, our current environment and almost everything else?Therefore the theory cannot be taken lightly or ignored!Nazi???=perhaps they have interpreted it in a beneficial way for them???I think you should think again Smile

Actually, it's a pretty irrelevant theory when applied to economics and human society, in general. Goverment laws restrict trusts and monopolies. In our society, we help the physically and intellectually weak.

Well Jeremysroberts- interesting point you make!ou do realise that survival of the fittest theory is what our origins are based on, our current environment and almost everything else?Therefore the theory cannot be taken lightly or ignored!Nazi???=perhaps they have interpreted it in a beneficial way for them???I think you should think again

disregarding anything stated in the Torah or the Koran as it has no place in discussions of international politics between modern intellectuals i would claim against israel occupying palestinian land legitimatly.

The question isn't religious, its moral, something devoid in religion. Israel uprooted many families, with many dying in the process. Palestinians had lived in those lands for centuries under the Ottoman Empire and before, no matter who has claim due to whatever is written in centuries old books, the fact of the matter is those people lost land that they had lived on for hundreds of years.

Zionism claimed many lives, British, Arab and Jewish, it should never have been allowed to happen as the results are comparable to genocide, and even the deportation of the entire chechen population and subsesquent death marches under Stalin during world war 2.

However what happened has happened and now there is a generation of jews growing up in a land they call home and to remove them would be as bad as removing the palestinians from their land as the jews did in the 50s. We need a bi-lateral peace to accomodate both parties.


Israel should never have been allowed to exist but now that it does it should remain alongside palestine.