Having posted on this board for a little while now, it is easy to seperate people into 2 distinct groups:

--Americans who feel unable to say anything bad about their country, with such extreme patriotism which is in the same class of extremity as the terrorists you all loathe and fail to understand so much.

-- everyone else, who discuss objectively and are able to put together a response which doesn't preach the greatness of the USA and or mr Bush. (let me say this group also includes Americans)


So what is the root of this fierce patriotism? From the very start the citizens of the US have been taught that they are the good guys, and everyone else is wrong. This begins from the war of independance...and moves through history, distorting it with false propoganda, until it manifests itself in films such as 'the Patriot' with Mel Gibson which portrays the British as pure evil, and U-571 which took a british WW2 victory and replaced it with an American cast and turned it into an American victory. This is purly sickening.

Not wanting to go on and on and write an essay, of which I recently did for University, writing about the effects of rampaging American Cultural Globalisation. (if anyone wants to read it drop me a line I'll email it along). What are your views on this matter? and if possible, could the strong American nationalists please tell us all what they think drives their passion, although we probably all know the answer...please don't tell us about all your moral and liberal greatness because it existed way before the US was founded. Thanks. Discuss.

No doubt, American nationalism spings from being historically spat upon militarily and diplomatically.

After independence was achieved, the fledgling United States was subjected to a series of ongoing disgraces meted out not only by rogue Islamic nations, but also European superpowers.

Beginning in the 1780's, North African Islamic principalities began seizing American merchant shipping and enslaving citizens. Why? Because America was not paying any annual tribute for safe passage. It was not until 1801 when America was able to finally retaliate with a handful of naval ships and gunboats, with an ambiguous result. In 1798, the French Revolutionary government scandalously demanded a bribe and extra payment from American authorities to win their cooperation and end their impoundment of American vessels. When the United States refused to submit to such loathsome tactics, the United States went to war in in a conflict now commonly referred to as the Quasi-War. While the United States prevailed at sea in the Caribbean (there was no land engagements, and the war was not even declared) a grave injustice had been made towards the nation and had been righted. Shortly afterwards, the Royal Navy of Britain began the policy of regularly hatling American shipping to impress American sailors to serve aboard Royal ships. Royal authorities even went so far as to stop American warships, and even fired on the USS Chesapeake in American waters, killing and wounding a number of Americans. In 1812, the United States formally declared War on Great Britain chiefly for the flagrant disregard of American maritime rights. The war amounted purely to be a national war for the sake of upholding and restoring the national American honor, and stick it to such a powerful European state as England. In 1815, Barbary troubles again brewed, and this time, with America having the resources and experience to end the problem, the Barbary corsairs were dealt with in a very harsh but justified fashion. Why? They had insulted American rights.

Therefore we can see that American pride stems from early American history when the young nation was virtually powerless at times to do anything to stop it. It came during the Georgian period when honor and chivalry acted as a guiding light for affairs of all persons.

On the Ireland issue, I feel I must rise up and defend old blighty. Some of the greatest proponents of Irish rights were English, such as Jonathan Swift.

I think it has some root in education. At a young age, British people get taught about the battle of hastings, which wasn't really anything to do with the political standpoints they hold today. I believe, if I remember correctly, that the American system is different, due to its lack of 'western' history until about three or so (not my period in history) the teaching material changes. For example, I cannot list out all the Monarchs of the UK, nor the Prime Ministers. I am led to beleive that this is not the case with American school children, who have to learn all the presidents. Please feel free to correct me harshly if I am wrong.

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Two insanely argumentative and dramatic cultures that should NEVER mix.

two insanely argumentive cultures that drink like nobodies buisness besides in a barfight the irish would wip the italians thus causing a war between ireland and italy

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do you know anything of Irish history? they were an integral part of the United Kingdom, had their own regiments in the British army, same rights...

Thats the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard. Ireland was bought by English Bourgeois after it was invaded. The Irish people, forced to cultivate potatoes, an excellent form of food, and eat pork, suffered a famine after their potatoes were eaten by an insect. The pork they had to eat died because the Irish fed the pigs potatoes. The Irish suffered because of the British. And the slimy Irish nationalists fought for their own rights. I'll also have you know that there were political prisonners because of the whole rebellion issue. Its sad that someone who boasts to know Irish history in fact lies and strecthes the truth.

  Though, in answer to the original question, I'd say human nature is at the root of our nationalism. 

I dont think you can call it human nature. It is probably just a preference to the country you grew up in. I could say I love England more than Canada (I live in Canada) but I never grew up in Engleand or traveled. Its easier to blame everything on human nature than on your simplistic inability to actually make a hypothesis.

Though, in answer to the original question, I'd say human nature is at the root of our nationalism.

Think about it; it's been going on for centuries. You want control over as much as possible to feel secure. Childish, perhaps, but there just the same.

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don't. Your of Irish descent, you have your own biases just as i have mine as an Englishman.

You want to see some REAL sparks fly, try living with an Irish mother and an Italian father. Two insanely argumentative and dramatic cultures that should NEVER mix.

........

Though, now that I think about it, where does that leave me?

Yes but I feel the need to apologize anyway.

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I apologize again for my earlier statments and behaviour.

don't. Your of Irish descent, you have your own biases just as i have mine as an Englishman.

with some of the crazys in the IRA were ther's a will theres a way

an American is from any and many nations but yes I was born and raised in the US. I am of irish decent but I have more german than irish and actually a little english. I belive the Irish chould have done a better job in their rebellion and not jumped so quickly at communism and terroism. The reason I think the Irish will really start attacking your royals is because in your society they make movie stars seem small time, and though they have no actual power (in general) any more they are important figure heads in your goverment and attacking leadership is a standard terroist action.

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independance sparked by seeing the indepedance of America claimed

so America started a little house fire in the manor of the british empire? but I guess on a lot of this your correct and you've been living with it on the other side of the pond so I guess you would know better than I. So I withdraw my previous statements and formally apologize. Also the root of American nationalism chronologically starts in the war of 1812 we thought we had one and suddenly the brits come back then the civil war and so on the period of America's exsitance has included the most bloody fighting ever including the civil war against our own country men this I belive has made us grow stronger as a nation a belive more that America will come out of any trial stronger than before. any way I would love to read your essay and if perhaps you have written any on The Troubles I would enjoy reading that as well and I apologize again for my earlier statments and behaviour.

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it's only a matter of time before the IRA starts killing your royals

are you kidding me? they do not have the means to attack the Royal Family, they are a retarded wannabe army with all the prestige of a potato.

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a free ireland is important to me.

why is it important to you? to see the northern irish re-united with the south? the majority of the north are Loyal to the British and want it to stay that way.

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oh and the root of our nationalism is beacuse we've had to fight long and hard to earn or freedom mainlf from england

are you not an American ampmaster? if so im guessing you have Irish roots, do you know anything of Irish history? they were an integral part of the United Kingdom, had their own regiments in the British army, same rights...yet their sudden burst of nationalism came after a long long period of happiness, their wishes for independance sparked by seeing the indepedance of America claimed.

However the reason the war was succesful was that the government was worried about upsetting colonists in Canada and Australia if they treated the rebel irish too harshly, if we had done this we could have faced an empire wide rebellion. So as it stood the small number who desired freedom were able to win, and thus poison the rest against the British.



please explain a little more ampmaster, of your beliefs on this topic, and why they are so strong. plain and simple i think the ira is a disgrace, sin fein is corrupt and decietful and the nationalist irish slimy and cowardice.

it's only a matter of time before the IRA starts killing your royals I don't agree with their methods but a free ireland is important to me.

oh and the root of our nationalism is beacuse we've had to fight long and hard to earn or freedom mainlf from england

The IRA was based on terrorism, they fought the RIC as an organised army and knew they couldn't win, so they reverted to partisan tactics and have brought any glorious Irish reuinion attempt crashing to a halt. The British government will never stand for terrorists, no matter what their cause.

Where has the glory and dignity that used to be a part of war gone?

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Originally posted by ampmaster:
all I can say is go IRA free North Ireland!

Down with the IRA, viva Ulster Defense Force!

I don't know where that came from Ampmaster but Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom and shall remain so, and as long as the IRA remain militant there should be no discussion of joint rule. The nationalist Irish there are traitors to the union, its about time Westminster stopped accepting the existence of the IRA and discussed a way to destroy it completely, afterall they are losing the fight and do not have the manpower, brains or balls to bring about any significant attack on the UK again, they remain a tiny thorn in our sides, and are actually slowing down the chance of peace.

all I can say is go IRA free North Ireland!

Yes, patriots become politicians because they are members of the ruling class, or tools.

Britan a "glorious cilization"- ha!

that may be true, but sometimes those patriots become politicians...it is no secret that nationalism can be taken too far, nationalism is bad for stability, a group of people bound together by the sharing of a homeland and a set of ideals they are told to believe and are told is for their own good.

I may feel proud of the British Empire, but it does not mean i condone such a thing today, throughout history there have been many examples of aggressive empires exploiting others for their own benefit, but today its a simple fact that this is just not acceptable. The US missed the age of imperialism...and are struggling to find a role for their supoerpower status, the denial of imperialism is giving them a tough shell and, as is human, are becoming prickely and defensive of their ideals when their nation is questioned by the old world.

Lets not forget the magnitude and scale that European and Asian history has over the USA, dwarfing the achievments of any modern nation, perhaps their aggressive nationalism is resulting from a want and desire to carve out a place in history for themselfes, just like the glorious civilisations in the past have done....Persia, Byzantium, Assyria, Egypt, Ottoman, Fatimid, Austrian, French, Rome and Holy Rome to France and Britain. These are a huge lot to live up to.

Patriotism is the morality of the state; what benifits the state is good and waht harms it is bad, regardless of universal right or wrong.

The state being essentially the preserve of the ruling class, patriotism is a way for the ruling class to get the massases on board with the state. The preservation of the state is in the intrest of the ruling class, the minority, not the masses, the majority.

Ergo- Patriotsm is Bull****.