quote:And I suppose it's up to you to decide which laws are "intelligent" and which aren't. I happen to think immigration laws are intelligent and ought to be actively enforced.
It is up to me to decide which laws I think are or are not intelligent. Whether or not everyone agrees is the purpose of the democratic process. Laws should be in place for a reason, and it is the responsbility of those defending such laws to state objective, compelling reasons for them.
quote:No. They are not supposed to be here. Every second they stay, they are still breaking our laws
Our hypothetical illegal is breaking a single law against crossing an imaginary line. A victimless crime.
quote:Someone murders another person; he can be put to death. Someone steals something; he has to give it back. Someone enters our country illegally; why shouldn't he have to leave? That's the only punishment that fits the crime.
Justice is never this simple. I'll illustrate this with the classic post-apocalyptic scenario.
Suppose your family is starving to death, and there's a 80 year old man living over the hill who has tons and tons of food; more than he would possibly need in his limited lifetime. He refuses to share with you. The land is a barren wasteland, and civilization has been eradicated for hundreds of miles around you, so growing your own or getting some elsewhere is not an alternative. Would it be immoral to steal some food to feed your starving children with?
So, once again, an illegal whose only crime is crossing an imaginary line is hardly deserving of forced deportation. The fact that one can claim that America is "our land" is intellectually staggering. The European forefathers came here and ruthlessly butchered the native populations. Perhaps the Indians should have the right to deport all whites, since technically this is "their land."
quote:I am not talking about morality. I am talking about legality. The laws are there to protect our nation's interest, not to make a noble sentiment.
So, in other words, you admit that the law has absolutely no moral justification whatsoever and is there merely to serve the nation's selfish economic and political interests. Thank you.
quote:If you're a working citizen or legal resident, you have every right to your paycheck in the first place, and so can do what you want with it.
So you have no problems with money being funneled right out of the country as long as a person has a right to their paycheck in the first place. Since you receive a paycheck in exchange for goods or services provided, not citizenship, this means illegals are ethically sound in sending their earnings to their families stuck living in filth.
quote:If someone breaks into my home, do they have a right to be there just because they're not "breaking other laws". No. They can and should be punished for breaking the law they did break. So too should illegals.
Flawed analogy. Someone breaking into your home is intruding on your personal property, and causing actual, physical damage by entering the house. An illegal crossing an imaginary line harms nothing.
quote:It's tresspassing on a larger scale. Somebody snooping through my backyard would be removed by authorities, and border-hoppers are no different.
What are they trespassing on? Public property? Buhaha! Also, I don't think I need to remind you that the near entirity of the United States was gained by brutal slaughter or trickery of the native populations.
quote:Let me rephrase what I said. Citizens and legal residents of the U.S. should have the sole right to compete for jobs within the country.
I'm still waiting for a moral justification for this statement.
quote: Just the low-skill American workers. Nothing important.
What I meant by that was that it's psychotic to worry about illegal immigrants having any significant impact on American economics as a whole. I do not mean to belittle the blue-collar worker.
quote:Victimless is stretching it. Our economy suffers. Our security suffers. Wages sink and taxpayers are burdened. Society is the victim.
Please demonstrate how a whole bunch of illegal immigrants working at Wal-Mart, a convenience store, or picking oranges affects the economy or security of the country in any significant way.
quote:Then you should have no problem with immigration laws.
There should be standards for citizenship and government aid and similar things. There should not be standards for minding your own damn business and working a job, anywhere in the world.
quote:All seat belt laws? What about laws requiring parents to secure their children in the vehicle? Are those "totalitarian"? Face it, some parents are plain dumb. We do need safety laws to a degree. Now, if an adult wants to put his or her life in jeopardy that way, I'm all for it. One less irresponsible person in the world. But in the case of children, failing to buckle up is no longer "victimless". Nor is illegal immigration, in fact.
When I was referring to the seat-belt laws, I was referring to the ones governing the individual only. I have no problems with the child seat-belt law. The point is if someone, as a responsible (albeit very stupid) adult, chooses not to wear a seat-belt (thereby effecting no one but themselves), the government has no right to tell them they have to, since it is not affecting anyone but them.
quote:I think it would be wiser for you to lobby for a change in the laws, rather than disregarding every one that you don't agree with. Nations don't function well if everybody thinks like that.
Please. A perfect example of this are anti-sodomy and anti-oral sex laws in southern states. To be blunt, is everyone going to "lobby for a change in the laws" before giving/receiving head, or are they just going to ignore the laws as stupid and asinine? There is no reason to waste the slightest bit of time or effort trying to change laws that are nearly impossible to enforce, and/or forbid actions which cause no harm.
quote:I never said they don't deserve jobs; I said they don't deserve the jobs in our country. And they don't. Let them get jobs where it is legal and otherwise appropriate for them to do so.
I am still waiting for you to morally justify the bizarre assumption that you only deserve a job somewhere you are a legal citizen of.
quote:I don't care "whether or not they're a citizen"; I care "whether or not they're legal". All legal residents are welcome.
Hair-splitting. Again, provide compelling moral justification for why illegal immigrants should not be allowed to work.
quote:If they're not legally here in the first place, how can they possibly "deserve" a shot at American jobs and American paychecks? They DESERVE shots at jobs and paychecks in their own countries, not ours.
Provide compelling moral justification why illegals do not deserve jobs in America.
quote:Again, this is not a moral crusade. The laws are there to protect the economic and societal needs of our country.
In other words, their sole purpose in this case is to fatten America's wallet. Gee, I lose lots of sleep at night worrying about the government's wallet.
quote: But illegal immigration does damage to our country, and that does = wrong. Whether or not you acknowledge it.
Not when the only damage being done is economic. You act as if their sole purpose in life is to move here so they can leech money and send it back to some sort of Immigrant Overlord, so that he can cackle at the gradual economic downfall of Western society. People immigrate because they want to live here. More citizens = more people working = better economy.
quote:That can be a dangerous attitude. There are many laws in place for very good reason, which are subverted by all kinds of people who fail to understand them as being anything other than "pointless or stupid". Not to say that you don't understand immigration laws, but you see that that kind of thinking on a large scale could effectively destroy the functioning of society.
Everyone can agree that the law stating, "don't kill people for no reason" is a good one. I'm not advocating anarchy; I'm just arguing that there is nothing wrong with a guy who crosses an imaginary line to work here and otherwise live in peace.
quote:If wearing pants on Monday would cause damage to our nation, society, economy, or people, then yes, you would be.
The point is that such a law would be incredibly stupid and no one in their right mind would follow it. Just because something is a law does not mean it is instantly legitimate.
quote:Americans with families who live off the American Cost of Living would require higher wages of the companies that can afford it. Immigrants, on the other hand, whose families can live off of much less money, offer to do the work for the inadequate minimum wage, which the American is not able to do. Thus, the companies hire the immigrants and avoid keeping their wages competitive for Americans.
Talk to the companies and the government, not the immigrants. Or do you think the immigrants wouldn't like to receive better wages? With a reasonable minimum wage, this problem is eliminated.
quote:I never said that people who break intelligent laws shouldn't be punished. You're distorting my position of, "Most immigrants don't break the law" into, "No one should be punished for breaking the law."
Who are you to decide what is an "intelligent" law or not? There are much smarter people than you who debated for a long time before the laws you do not like were put into place.
quote:Suppose they follow every law except the one against border hopping. Are they still welcome then?
No; they broke the law.
quote:Exactly, the punishment should fit the crime. How is sending someone back to their crap-hole of a country to live in filth and squallor because they border-hopped "fitting the crime?" It isn't, unless the immigrant was also breaking other laws. Again, border-hopping in and of itself is a victimless crime.
How do you know it is not victimless? Just because it does not hurt someone directly right away does not mean that it cannot hurt someone indirectly for/after a long period of time.
quote:I am all for the passing and upholding of intelligent, well thought-out laws that benefit society. What I am not in favor of is totalatarian crap like seat belt laws and notions of forced deportation for the "heinous offense" of crossing an imaginary line.
I agree with puffinkeeper on this one. Seat belt laws are needed because there are really stupid parents who do not buckle up their children, so the children end up hitting the windows or flying out the windows when that dumb parent finally gets into a car crash. I personally do not feel that is fair to the kids; they did not chose to have such dumb parents.
Just because you do not understand a law does not make it "unintelligent."
quote:Anyone willing to work deserves a job. Which part of this eludes you? Whether or not they're a citizen does not have the slightest bearing on this. If you are willing to put in a hard day's work you deserve to be paid no matter where you are from. I am not saying that immigrants take priority over Americans, just that they deserve the same shot.
I hate to tell you this, but yes it does. Why should someone who is not supposed to be here get a job? First off, it is illegal. Second, it hurts the economy/society. Which part of this eludes you?
Legal immigrants deserve the same shot; illegal ones do not.
quote:Against the law does not necessarily = wrong.
I love your logic. </sarcasm>.
quote:Please explain to me how immigrants are single-handedly responsible for minimum wage rates being the way they are.
They are responsible for minimum wage rates for being so low because they are willing to take practically nothing for their work. If they demanded the minimum, and all of them refused to work until the companies did so, then the companies would be forced to pay the minimum wage and we would not have this problem.
Just think of the factories during the Industrial Revolution. Hundreds of immigrants were coming into the USA and were lined up in front of the factories. You are a factory worker and you hate the low wages and horrible working conditions. What do you do? You cannot complain; if you do, you will be fired because there is a whole line of people willing to take your job for even less money. This is basically the same concept; I hope you can grasp it.
quote:No, it's patently absurd to talk about something that not nearly every immigrant does. This would be like talking about how to reduce crime, and then saying that we should deport all black people. Because, hey, you got to admit that lower crime rates would be one good thing to come out of deporting all black people, right?
No it is not; it is an important thing to talk about. If it was not, then why are you arguing about it?
We have nothing against the law-abiding immigrants. It is the illegal ones we have a problem with. You do not seem to understand this idea.
quote:I never said that people who break intelligent laws shouldn't be punished. You're distorting my position of, "Most immigrants don't break the law" into, "No one should be punished for breaking the law."
And I suppose it's up to you to decide which laws are "intelligent" and which aren't. I happen to think immigration laws are intelligent and ought to be actively enforced.
quote:Suppose they follow every law except the one against border hopping. Are they still welcome then?
No. They are not supposed to be here. Every second they stay, they are still breaking our laws.
quote:"...and make sure it fits the crime." Exactly.
Someone murders another person; he can be put to death. Someone steals something; he has to give it back. Someone enters our country illegally; why shouldn't he have to leave? That's the only punishment that fits the crime.
quote:In my (I'll admit, extremely limited) experience most immigrants only do this until they can afford to bring their entire families over.
And if the family doesn't come legally, they're not welcome either.
quote:I do agree that funneling money out of the country is bad for the economy, though I fail to see the immorality of it.
I am not talking about morality. I am talking about legality. The laws are there to protect our nation's interest, not to make a noble sentiment.
quote:If I had a starving friend in Africa, would I be in the wrong if I sent him some money I earned at my job?
If you're a working citizen or legal resident, you have every right to your paycheck in the first place, and so can do what you want with it.
quote:Exactly, the punishment should fit the crime. How is sending someone back to their crap-hole of a country to live in filth and squallor because they border-hopped "fitting the crime?"
As I pointed out above, it's the only punishment that fits the crime. It's readily comparable to the punishments for other crimes in our country.
quote:It isn't, unless the immigrant was also breaking other laws.
If someone breaks into my home, do they have a right to be there just because they're not "breaking other laws". No. They can and should be punished for breaking the law they did break. So too should illegals.
quote:Again, border-hopping in and of itself is a victimless crime.
It's tresspassing on a larger scale. Somebody snooping through my backyard would be removed by authorities, and border-hoppers are no different.
quote:No one has a "right" to a job.
Let me rephrase what I said. Citizens and legal residents of the U.S. should have the sole right to compete for jobs within the country.
quote:Jobs are provided by companies, whose only moral obligation in the hiring process is to hire the most qualified person and pay them a fair wage. It doesn't matter if the person is from America, Mexico, Japan, or Australia.
But it does matter whether they are here legally.
quote:Furthermore, these immigrants are getting the most basic, lowest common denominator, grunt-work jobs. It's not like we have Mexican nuclear physicists hopping the border. They are largely a group of shelf-stockers and orange-pickers trying to eke out a decent living. They affect virtually nothing of importance.
Just the low-skill American workers. Nothing important.
quote:The victimless crime of crossing an imaginary line is hardly deserving of punishment.
Victimless is stretching it. Our economy suffers. Our security suffers. Wages sink and taxpayers are burdened. Society is the victim.
quote:I am all for the passing and upholding of intelligent, well thought-out laws that benefit society.
Then you should have no problem with immigration laws.
quote:What I am not in favor of is totalatarian crap like seat belt laws and notions of forced deportation for the "heinous offense" of crossing an imaginary line.
All seat belt laws? What about laws requiring parents to secure their children in the vehicle? Are those "totalitarian"? Face it, some parents are plain dumb. We do need safety laws to a degree. Now, if an adult wants to put his or her life in jeopardy that way, I'm all for it. One less irresponsible person in the world. But in the case of children, failing to buckle up is no longer "victimless". Nor is illegal immigration, in fact.
quote:There are tons of incredibly stupid laws on the books, and just because something is a law doesn't mean it's worth following.
I think it would be wiser for you to lobby for a change in the laws, rather than disregarding every one that you don't agree with. Nations don't function well if everybody thinks like that.
quote:Anyone willing to work deserves a job.
I never said they don't deserve jobs; I said they don't deserve the jobs in our country. And they don't. Let them get jobs where it is legal and otherwise appropriate for them to do so.
quote:Which part of this eludes you?
I guess the part where they can be in a constant state of law-breaking and still have unlimited access to Americans' job market.
quote:Whether or not they're a citizen does not have the slightest bearing on this.
I don't care "whether or not they're a citizen"; I care "whether or not they're legal". All legal residents are welcome.
quote:I am not saying that immigrants take priority over Americans, just that they deserve the same shot.
If they're not legally here in the first place, how can they possibly "deserve" a shot at American jobs and American paychecks? They DESERVE shots at jobs and paychecks in their own countries, not ours.
quote:I am sure you are correct in stating that some of them do this. This is a far-cry from all, and bad effects on the economy notwithstanding, I fail to see the immorality.
Again, this is not a moral crusade. The laws are there to protect the economic and societal needs of our country.
quote:Against the law does not necessarily = wrong.
But illegal immigration does damage to our country, and that does = wrong. Whether or not you acknowledge it.
quote:If I think a law is pointless or stupid, I'll happily subvert it.
That can be a dangerous attitude. There are many laws in place for very good reason, which are subverted by all kinds of people who fail to understand them as being anything other than "pointless or stupid". Not to say that you don't understand immigration laws, but you see that that kind of thinking on a large scale could effectively destroy the functioning of society.
quote:What if they passed a law saying it was illegal to wear pants on Monday? Am I subverting American society by walking out of my house in jeans?
If wearing pants on Monday would cause damage to our nation, society, economy, or people, then yes, you would be.
quote:Please explain to me how immigrants are single-handedly responsible for minimum wage rates being the way they are.
Immigrants are not responsible for the minimum wage rates themselves, and I never said they were. I said they are responsible for the fact that companies don't offer more than the minimum wage. And this is why:
Americans with families who live off the American Cost of Living would require higher wages of the companies that can afford it. Immigrants, on the other hand, whose families can live off of much less money, offer to do the work for the inadequate minimum wage, which the American is not able to do. Thus, the companies hire the immigrants and avoid keeping their wages competitive for Americans.
quote:The illegal immigrants are defying an asinine law and committing a victimless crime. The companies are defying a law that makes good sense and has noticeable effects on society. There is a difference.
Not asinine. Not victimless. See above.
quote:So are you saying that minimum wage won't support a family in America? Forget immigration exists at all. Minimum wage still (hypothetically) doesn't support the American family. Sounds like a problem for America.
It wouldn't be if immigrants didn't hold down the wages. If companies were hiring legal residents, they would have to keep their wages competitive.
quote:That's irrelevant. American citizens who break the law or have shady affiliations are punished or monitered; immigrants should be too.
I never said that people who break intelligent laws shouldn't be punished. You're distorting my position of, "Most immigrants don't break the law" into, "No one should be punished for breaking the law."
quote:I am not saying we should punish all for the actions of a few. I am saying we should hold illegal immigrants accountable for breaking our immigration laws and prevent unqualified applicants from entering legally or otherwise. Those deemed qualified and who follow our laws are welcome as far as I'm concerned.
Suppose they follow every law except the one against border hopping. Are they still welcome then?
quote:Of course not. We should punish those who do commit the crime and make sure it fits the crime.
"...and make sure it fits the crime." Exactly.
quote:Stimulating the economy? We've been over this. They take jobs away from Americans and then send most of their wages straight out of the country. How is that stimulating our economy? As far as I'm concerned, they're robbing our economy to give to the poor in Mexico and elsewhere.
In my (I'll admit, extremely limited) experience most immigrants only do this until they can afford to bring their entire families over. I do agree that funneling money out of the country is bad for the economy, though I fail to see the immorality of it. If I had a starving friend in Africa, would I be in the wrong if I sent him some money I earned at my job?
quote:No, the punishment should fit the crime. And the potential punishment for speeding is a request to slow down and possibly a ticket to be paid. You see how it fits? When someone is caught speeding, they are expected to slow down. When someone is caught stealing, they are forced to return what they stole. And when someone is caught breaking into our country, they ought to be forced, to leave.
Exactly, the punishment should fit the crime. How is sending someone back to their crap-hole of a country to live in filth and squallor because they border-hopped "fitting the crime?" It isn't, unless the immigrant was also breaking other laws. Again, border-hopping in and of itself is a victimless crime.
quote:No, not exclusively citizens, but they are obliged to give them to legal residents. Explain why foreigners who break into our country have rights to our jobs? They don't. They have rights to jobs with American companies in their own countries, or in countries where they are considered legal residents, but they certainly do not have the right to jobs within the United States. If you still think they do, explain why.
No one has a "right" to a job. Jobs are provided by companies, whose only moral obligation in the hiring process is to hire the most qualified person and pay them a fair wage. It doesn't matter if the person is from America, Mexico, Japan, or Australia.
Furthermore, these immigrants are getting the most basic, lowest common denominator, grunt-work jobs. It's not like we have Mexican nuclear physicists hopping the border. They are largely a group of shelf-stockers and orange-pickers trying to eke out a decent living. They affect virtually nothing of importance.
quote:It's hardly a punishment for breaking our laws!
The victimless crime of crossing an imaginary line is hardly deserving of punishment.
quote:You can't have much respect for our country if you see nothing wrong with breaking our laws. The fact is, the United States has the power to make and enforce immigration laws, and there is no "compelling reason" that we should not make and enforce laws that serve our interests, even if it upsets the foreigners who so enjoy exploiting our economy.
I am all for the passing and upholding of intelligent, well thought-out laws that benefit society. What I am not in favor of is totalatarian crap like seat belt laws and notions of forced deportation for the "heinous offense" of crossing an imaginary line.
There are tons of incredibly stupid laws on the books, and just because something is a law doesn't mean it's worth following.
quote:I'm not saying all companies should always promote the interests of Americans first. I'm saying that jobs within the United States should be held by citizens or legal residents. It isn't misplaced patriotism; it's common sense. Again, if you disagree, please explain why someone who is here illegally in the first place deserves a job here. If I win a million dollars, and everyone finds out I stole the winning lottery ticket, am I still entitled to the money? Morality and the legal system say I am not.
Anyone willing to work deserves a job. Which part of this eludes you? Whether or not they're a citizen does not have the slightest bearing on this. If you are willing to put in a hard day's work you deserve to be paid no matter where you are from. I am not saying that immigrants take priority over Americans, just that they deserve the same shot.
quote:Their illegals are stealing our jobs and exporting their paychecks. That is primarily how they're screwing us over.
I am sure you are correct in stating that some of them do this. This is a far-cry from all, and bad effects on the economy notwithstanding, I fail to see the immorality.
quote:It's against the law, for starters.
Against the law does not necessarily = wrong.
quote:So you're essentially saying that you'll subvert our laws whenever you find it befitting. I suppose that's well-placed patriotism?
If I think a law is pointless or stupid, I'll happily subvert it. What if they passed a law saying it was illegal to wear pants on Monday? Am I subverting American society by walking out of my house in jeans?
quote:If it weren't for all the immigrants, our companies would be offering more than minimum wage. I never blamed them for an insufficient minimum wage; I blamed them for breaking our laws and driving wages down to that minimum. And I still blame them.
Please explain to me how immigrants are single-handedly responsible for minimum wage rates being the way they are.
quote:The immigrants are defying laws too; that's a double standard.
The illegal immigrants are defying an asinine law and committing a victimless crime. The companies are defying a law that makes good sense and has noticeable effects on society. There is a difference.
quote:As I've said, minimum wage supports a family in Mexico, not one in America. So the problem is handily eliminated for the criminals, not the law-abiding citizens and residents.
So are you saying that minimum wage won't support a family in America? Forget immigration exists at all. Minimum wage still (hypothetically) doesn't support the American family. Sounds like a problem for America.
quote:American tax-evaders ought to be cracked down on as well. That doesn't excuse the immigrants. It is another way in which they leech off our country. It has a place in the debate, because it is one more good thing to come from tougher immigration law enforcement.
No, it's patently absurd to talk about something that not nearly every immigrant does. This would be like talking about how to reduce crime, and then saying that we should deport all black people. Because, hey, you got to admit that lower crime rates would be one good thing to come out of deporting all black people, right?
Why should illegal immigrants want to come over to America?
First off it's about foreign government. Let's face it, it sucks compared to the US. So complain to foreign leaders. I'm totally for equal oppurtunity but may I ask why everyone has to do this in America, that's what's bringing down our economy over population.
I feel America should start closing its borders, let fewer illegals become citizens, because they're illegal. Giving an illegal a driver's license is like giving a murderer freedom, why shouldn't they have to wait in line like everyone else awaiting citizenship.
That's irrelevant. American citizens who break the law or have shady affiliations are punished or monitered; immigrants should be too.
quote:Sure, there may be a few people who come over to smuggle drugs or what have you, but punishing the people coming over looking for a decent job because of the actions of other immigrants is moronic.
I am not saying we should punish all for the actions of a few. I am saying we should hold illegal immigrants accountable for breaking our immigration laws and prevent unqualified applicants from entering legally or otherwise. Those deemed qualified and who follow our laws are welcome as far as I'm concerned.
quote:Should we round up and deport all the black people, since as a demographic they are responsible for the most crime?
Of course not. We should punish those who do commit the crime and make sure it fits the crime.
quote:Please explain why hopping the border to start working and stimulating the economy should be repayed with deportation.
Stimulating the economy? We've been over this. They take jobs away from Americans and then send most of their wages straight out of the country. How is that stimulating our economy? As far as I'm concerned, they're robbing our economy to give to the poor in Mexico and elsewhere.
quote:I break the law everyday when I drive 5 mph over the speed-limit. Should I be deported?
No, the punishment should fit the crime. And the potential punishment for speeding is a request to slow down and possibly a ticket to be paid. You see how it fits? When someone is caught speeding, they are expected to slow down. When someone is caught stealing, they are forced to return what they stole. And when someone is caught breaking into our country, they ought to be forced, to leave.
quote:You seem to be under the impression that Americans have some sort of inalienable right to jobs in their own country. They don't. American companies are not morally obliged to provide jobs to American citizens.
No, not exclusively citizens, but they are obliged to give them to legal residents. Explain why foreigners who break into our country have rights to our jobs? They don't. They have rights to jobs with American companies in their own countries, or in countries where they are considered legal residents, but they certainly do not have the right to jobs within the United States. If you still think they do, explain why.
quote:Have you ever worked a low-skilled or manual labor job? I would hardly call that a "reward."
It's hardly a punishment for breaking our laws!
quote:You have yet to provide a compelling reason why immigration (illegal or otherwise) is a bad thing,
You can't have much respect for our country if you see nothing wrong with breaking our laws. The fact is, the United States has the power to make and enforce immigration laws, and there is no "compelling reason" that we should not make and enforce laws that serve our interests, even if it upsets the foreigners who so enjoy exploiting our economy.
quote:Why should companies promote the interests of Americans first? There's no bloody reason other than a misplaced sense of patriotism.
I'm not saying all companies should always promote the interests of Americans first. I'm saying that jobs within the United States should be held by citizens or legal residents. It isn't misplaced patriotism; it's common sense. Again, if you disagree, please explain why someone who is here illegally in the first place deserves a job here. If I win a million dollars, and everyone finds out I stole the winning lottery ticket, am I still entitled to the money? Morality and the legal system say I am not.
quote:How exactly is Mexico "screwing us over?"
Their illegals are stealing our jobs and exporting their paychecks. That is primarily how they're screwing us over.
quote:Perhaps it's a secret Mexican plot. Yes, it all makes sense now!
Hm... You may be on to something there.
quote:By sending waves of their own citizens over the border to do crap work for crap pay, they will slowly dominate American society and completely demolish the economy.
1. It's probably not crap pay compared to what they make in their home country.
2. They may not dominate society yet, but you can definately see America being forced to conform to minority cultures instead of vice versa, as it should be.
quote:So how is it wrong?
It's against the law, for starters.
quote:That's why we have minimum wage. Minimum wage is an extremely important concept.
Minimum wage is unlikely to support a family in America.
quote:Not when the "criminals'" only crime is the victimless crime of crossing an imaginary border line. Who says they're unwelcome in the first place?
United States law and everybody I know, to name a few.
quote:If an illegal from Mexico moved in next door to me, I couldn't care less, as long as he wasn't doing anything harmful or dangerous.
So you're essentially saying that you'll subvert our laws whenever you find it befitting. I suppose that's well-placed patriotism?
quote:Minimum wage. If the mininum wage rate is too low for the average American family to live off of it, that's the American government's fault, not the immigrants.
If it weren't for all the immigrants, our companies would be offering more than minimum wage. I never blamed them for an insufficient minimum wage; I blamed them for breaking our laws and driving wages down to that minimum. And I still blame them.
quote:It's not fine if the companies are paying the immigrants less than minimum wage, thereby defying a law that is in place for a good reason.
The immigrants are defying laws too; that's a double standard.
quote:I should have specified that earlier. The concept of minimum wage handily eliminates the problem of an immigrant being able to "outbid" an American for a job position by working for an absurdly low rate that an American family could not possibly hope to live off of.
As I've said, minimum wage supports a family in Mexico, not one in America. So the problem is handily eliminated for the criminals, not the law-abiding citizens and residents.
quote:It's a common practice among everyone in the country. Unless the problem is exclusive to immigration, it has no place in debating immigration.
American tax-evaders ought to be cracked down on as well. That doesn't excuse the immigrants. It is another way in which they leech off our country. It has a place in the debate, because it is one more good thing to come from tougher immigration law enforcement.
The plane highjackers didn't have completed information for a greencard or a visa, but of course, we should let them in, because they deserve to have the chance to live here, even if they are gonna blow themselves up (along with our American citizens).
I'm just using 9/11 as an example, it's not the only reason. I'd keep going, but I think madpuffinkeeper has said most of what I would've.
quote:Security threats, affiliations with any terrorist organizations, serious crimes, not knowing or caring to know basic English, disobeying U.S. laws (that takes care of the illegals), to name a few.
None of which are exclusive to immigrants. Sure, there may be a few people who come over to smuggle drugs or what have you, but punishing the people coming over looking for a decent job because of the actions of other immigrants is moronic. Should we round up and deport all the black people, since as a demographic they are responsible for the most crime?
quote:And their willingness to work doesn't change the fact that they broke our laws in the first place and deserve nothing in return except deportation.
Please explain why hopping the border to start working and stimulating the economy should be repayed with deportation. I break the law everyday when I drive 5 mph over the speed-limit. Should I be deported?
quote:Apples and oranges, dear. Of course American citizens have the right to travel within their country to find work. But illegal immigrants do not have the right to break into our country in the first place, so they should not be rewarded with low-skill jobs that plenty of Americans could be doing.
You seem to be under the impression that Americans have some sort of inalienable right to jobs in their own country. They don't. American companies are not morally obliged to provide jobs to American citizens.
Have you ever worked a low-skilled or manual labor job? I would hardly call that a "reward."
You have yet to provide a compelling reason why immigration (illegal or otherwise) is a bad thing, other than rattling off a laundry-list of generic crimes that immigrants, illegal or otherwise, may or may not cause. If they start doing illegal things, they will be seized and deported by the American authorities. If they're just sitting there quietly earning a living, they're not harming anything.
quote:fully support competition between Americans, but when it comes to competing with foreigners I do think we need to promote the interests of Americans first. Call that what you will, but I believe that our nation's first interest is itself and its people. Our government is supposed to work for Americans, not for Mexicans and against Americans. That's self-defeating. I take it you're a globalist? I think the problem with globalists is that they don't feel strong national loyalties. They think the government should stand by and watch its people get screwed over by the third world country to its south.
Why should companies promote the interests of Americans first? There's no bloody reason other than a misplaced sense of patriotism.
How exactly is Mexico "screwing us over?" Perhaps it's a secret Mexican plot. Yes, it all makes sense now! By sending waves of their own citizens over the border to do crap work for crap pay, they will slowly dominate American society and completely demolish the economy.
quote:Yes, it does make sense. That doesn't make it right.
So how is it wrong?
quote:I don't think you understood the "standard/cost of living" point. The point was that Americans can not necessarily live off the same wages as illegals, because America's cost of living is greater than that of Mexico (where many immigrants funnel their money to their families). So what gets Sr. Diego by is not enough for a low-skill worker to support his family with.
That's why we have minimum wage. Minimum wage is an extremely important concept.
quote:BTW, Americans shouldn't be forced to compete with criminals who are unwelcome in our country in the first place. So you're telling the wrong person to "get a job somewhere else".
Not when the "criminals'" only crime is the victimless crime of crossing an imaginary border line. Who says they're unwelcome in the first place? If an illegal from Mexico moved in next door to me, I couldn't care less, as long as he wasn't doing anything harmful or dangerous.
quote:It tells you that immigrants' families live off a dime a day while Joe American's family can not.
Minimum wage. If the mininum wage rate is too low for the average American family to live off of it, that's the American government's fault, not the immigrants.
quote:You just said "it makes good business sense to hire somebody who is going to do the same work for less money". You've been saying the entire time that it's perfectly fine, haven't you? Competition, after all.
I'm all for cracking down on the companies who harbor them, but illegals have to take responsibility for their own criminal actions. They are the first and foremost offenders. They wouldn't be exploited by American companies if they didn't smuggle themselves up here in the first place, so they get no sympathy from me.
It's not fine if the companies are paying the immigrants less than minimum wage, thereby defying a law that is in place for a good reason. I should have specified that earlier. The concept of minimum wage handily eliminates the problem of an immigrant being able to "outbid" an American for a job position by working for an absurdly low rate that an American family could not possibly hope to live off of.
quote:Of course there are more natural citizens who evade taxes than there are immigrants who do the same-- there are more natural citizens period, so what can you expect? And if it's common practice among illegals, it's perfectly relevant.
It's a common practice among everyone in the country. Unless the problem is exclusive to immigration, it has no place in debating immigration. It's like saying that NASCAR leads to liver problems, because some of the racers drink.
quote:and besides, they are doing the jobs the average american doesnt want to do anyways...someone gotta do it right?
Look at our unemployment rates right now. It's not that Americans don't want to do the work, it's that they can't support themselves and their families on the dirt-poor wages these factories and corporations are willing to pay.
Security threats, affiliations with any terrorist organizations, serious crimes, not knowing or caring to know basic English, disobeying U.S. laws (that takes care of the illegals), to name a few.
quote:None of this changes the fundamental point that they are willing to do the same work for less money.
And their willingness to work doesn't change the fact that they broke our laws in the first place and deserve nothing in return except deportation.
quote:What the fek does it matter if it's a guy from across the border? If a whole bunch of people from Detroit moved to New York because the job market was crappy in Detroit, are you going to rant and rave against those damned dirty people from Detroit "taking" the New Yorker's jobs if they're willing to do the same exact work for a fraction of the cost?
Apples and oranges, dear. Of course American citizens have the right to travel within their country to find work. But illegal immigrants do not have the right to break into our country in the first place, so they should not be rewarded with low-skill jobs that plenty of Americans could be doing.
quote:You're essentially opposing the principle of competition, which is the base of capitalism and our economy.
I fully support competition between Americans, but when it comes to competing with foreigners I do think we need to promote the interests of Americans first. Call that what you will, but I believe that our nation's first interest is itself and its people. Our government is supposed to work for Americans, not for Mexicans and against Americans. That's self-defeating. I take it you're a globalist? I think the problem with globalists is that they don't feel strong national loyalties. They think the government should stand by and watch its people get screwed over by the third world country to its south.
quote:It only makes good business sense to hire out someone who is going to do the same work for less money.
Yes, it does make sense. That doesn't make it right.
quote:If your precious "standard of living" is upset, TFB. Get a job somewhere else, or match the rate that the immigrant is willing to work for. If they can survive with what they make, so can you.
I don't think you understood the "standard/cost of living" point. The point was that Americans can not necessarily live off the same wages as illegals, because America's cost of living is greater than that of Mexico (where many immigrants funnel their money to their families). So what gets Sr. Diego by is not enough for a low-skill worker to support his family with.
BTW, Americans shouldn't be forced to compete with criminals who are unwelcome in our country in the first place. So you're telling the wrong person to "get a job somewhere else".
quote:The immigrants are apparently willing to work just as hard as Joe American for half the wages. What does that tell you about Joe American?
It tells you that immigrants' families live off a dime a day while Joe American's family can not.
quote:It's the companies that should be held accountable; not the immigrants. (That said, if companies are intentionally hiring illegal immigrants and paying them less because they are illegal and don't know any better, that is unethical, and should not be allowed.)
You just said "it makes good business sense to hire somebody who is going to do the same work for less money". You've been saying the entire time that it's perfectly fine, haven't you? Competition, after all.
I'm all for cracking down on the companies who harbor them, but illegals have to take responsibility for their own criminal actions. They are the first and foremost offenders. They wouldn't be exploited by American companies if they didn't smuggle themselves up here in the first place, so they get no sympathy from me.
quote:The point was that, "Immigration = Tax Evasion" is a non-sequitur. There are just as many (probably more) natural citizens who evade their taxes than immigrants. It's not relevant to immigration.
Of course there are more natural citizens who evade taxes than there are immigrants who do the same-- there are more natural citizens period, so what can you expect? And if it's common practice among illegals, it's perfectly relevant.
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