quote:[you] do not believe that [you're] any less a person
without religion, you're damned to hell. Although I don't see claiming Joey to be a Hitler as effective, I do agree that that there are a lot of good ideas out there and no one could know all the "right ideas." I hope I don't get chewed out for this heathen perspective.
P.S. Just a little sarcasm and repartee here, I feel really good and kinda silly right now P.P.S. If it does bug you Joey then I hope for a very good post in response
All denominations of Christianity are derived from Catholicism, which is basically only more uh... formal- for lack of a better word. You have obviously never been to a Catholic mass, and have formed your sick opinions from sterotypes and propaganda that you accepted as fact. You have no idea how terrible those opinions are. What you say makes me believe that you are Hitler reincarnated. Try having an open mind and try going to a mass. Go to a synogauge, go to a mosqe (can't spell) Go somewhere outside of you're polluted little bubble, and take a breath of air. You might find out that you are not the only one who is right. In fact you may discover that you are not right. I think that if you tried to be tolerant, you may discover something. My best friend is a Hindu, and when I met her I was a Christian. (Methodist) And I don't think I am going to hell- if it even exists- for not "saving" her. I have since given up religion, and I do not believe that I am any less a person. Also- Catholics are not Pagan. Enough said.
Gosh, ya'll-- I wonder what he'd (Joey) say about THe theory of Evolution....
Let me preface by saying that everything to follow is sincere and not meant in any way to be or sound sarcastic or joking.
Preaching I'm not offended by what you "preach." I was trying to say that my aversion was to the method, the way you preach.
Laodecian Period I did not know what the Laodecian period was so I did look it up and read Revelation 3:14-22, and sadly I agree with your assertion about me being a poster boy for it. But even without knowing what Laodecian was I have been working against it and perceived it in myself and others; that’s partly what drove me away from the church. I was a cantor at a local catholic church for about a year, leading the congregation in music at the masses, I came away from that year with disgust for the church. So little of people’s time was actually focused on Christ, for one hour of their lives each week they sat and listened and performed the rituals, then went away and got wrapped back up in worldliness and materialism. At school I have many religious friends and I constantly challenge them and their beliefs, and too often they don’t have anything good to say; I challenge them because their beliefs and understanding of Christ and the scriptures are so weak. I have to say I am happy to see someone so strong in their beliefs as you, Joey. I love to learn what people believe even if it conflicts with my own views, because I don’t believe I am infallible, but people with weak stances on anything have nothing to teach, at the first sign of conflicting opinions they bend and concede their position. One last point, in those verses of scripture I referenced above, he does speak of the consequences to the Laodiceans
quote:Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
But I want to emphasize that his focus in on positive reinforcement. He effectively says, open your heart completely to me and rebuke materialism and I will be with you for eternity, he doesn’t say, if you don’t you’re damned to hell fire (yes it’s implied, but that’s not his focus). That’s what I was trying to get at with my last post, that love, understanding, but also strength of conviction, is more constructive and effective than fear and intimidation.
The Pope and Catholicism I won’t go as far as to say that the Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore, but I agree that anyone, such as the Pope, with immense power and an aspiration for more deserves a good deal of scrutiny, because not one person on earth is infallible, and humanity as a whole is most definitely fallible.
There's no such thing -- I'm sure you know the Bible verses about you're either FOR Christ or against Him.
There is no "in between."
This is not a judgement, either -- it's the Truth. The Truth you admit you do not even believe in.
Let me tell you something. If you're offended by what I "preach" then you're a poster boy of the Laodecian period. Don't know what the Laodecian period is? Well, it's not like you would believe it anyway, but you should study the seven churches in Revelation and pay close attention to the characteristics of the Laodecia church.
You know, for a time, I was really beginning to come down hard on myself for "preaching" this "fear" that you people are so "offended" by - I've been told I am so close-minded, yet the one's *****ing about the fear and anti-Catholic viewpoints are the ones who cannot accept the fact that the Catholic Church is PAGAN!.
Jesus said that because of people's hearts, they will reject the truth, and will reject the people trying to preach the truth.
YouthNOISE is such a prime example of this prophecy.
And it's happening right before your eyes.
Repent, people. Repent, repent, repent.
<JoeyDauben>
Posted
To understand Revelation, you must first understand the Book of Daniel; if you get the gist of Daniel, and learn to study the visions he saw, then you will have an easier time dealing with Revelation.
Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah are also good prophets to study.
But, you won't be able to understand squat unless you actually Believe in the text you're reading - that's not up to me; that's between YOUR hearts and YOUR minds.
Anyway, with that said, let's answer Pie's question (or try to):
During the Great Tribulation, a Satan-led political leader will rise out of a federation of what is believed to be the Revised Roman Empire.(note: this is where your study of Daniel would come in)
What is the R. Roman Empire? The European Union has 15 members right now -- the membership fluctuates, but in the end, it will be the final 10 nations. The E.U. was founded by the Treaty of Rome.
ALONG WITH the Antichrist (the false political leader) there will be a false prophet, or false religious leader:
Rev. 13:11 - "And I beheld another beast coming out of the earth..."
This is the False Prophet John writes about.
The False Prophet will be influential in religious affairs, having authority given to him [by Satan] to promote the worship of the Antichrist and authenticating his unholy campaign with signs and wonders (Jesus aint the only one able to do this)...also, the false prophet will deceive the WHOLE world, promote idolatrous worship, and will have power over death.
Rev. 11 - 18 describes what he will be able to do; he'll give life unto an "image" thus fooling the unbelievers during the Tribulation. He will literally cause a HUGE statue of the Antichrist or some other object (aka Abomination of Desolation to many scholars) to be able to speak and do other wonders.
(Note: The Virgin Mary can already "do" this)
2 Thessalonians 8 - 10 describes the end times.
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
The Roman Catholic church is believed to be a parallel to the "Great Whore" in Revelation 17, 18 (which is Babylon).
How is this possible?
"...The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."
Study Rome a bit -- you'll find out that Rome is the city of seven major hills, or mountains.
The summary of Revelation 17:9 states: "Rome was known throughout the ancient world as a city built on seven hills or mountains. John notes that the wise mind will make the proper identification.
"The woman [whore] apparently represents idolatrous, anti-God civilization, centered at Rome but with worldwide influence."
In Daniel 9:26, "...the people of the prince that shall come" are the ROMANS in A.D. 70.
Not only this, but the False Prophet (the Great Whore is symbolic; the prophet will not be a woman) will have WORLDWIDE influence and will command many peoples, nations and tongues (Rev. 17:15-18).
Study what Pope John Paul does right now; hell, study what all of the Popes have done.
What happens on TV when the Pope makes a visit? Throngs upon THRONGS of people flock to this guy. Why? Because he's "Christ's representative" here on earth (this is actually blasphemy, since there is only One mediator between God and Man, and that is Jesus - not the pope).
People line up to have this guy "bless" them. The Pope sits at a chair with an upside down cross.
People cry and marvel at the fact Virgin Mary "cries." This, folks, MUST be examined closer.
I need to take a deep breath before I say anything. *sigh* I am a christian on the fence. Joey is the kind of person that helps me to loose balance and almost fall on the side away from religion.
quote:1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I'm sorry but Joey's approach to "saving" people is one based in fear, which obviously is not the greatest way to do it (as we can see from the scripture which he is so fond of quoting). When I see or hear someone filled with love, and sharing that love because of thier beliefs it moves me and brings me closer to Christ despite my disbelief. Such a person is Saint Saint Francis of Assisi, who I deeply respect.
quote:I've got news for you -- any person, great or small, who does not know Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and who does not believe in Jesus as the only True God...will be damned to hell for eternity. JoeyDauben
Well it sounds like I'm headed to hell despite the fact that I have commited my life to a blind love and respect for all life. I obviously don't believe in heaven because I don't believe in God, but I still believe in the power of religion to create peace on earth.
quote:Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another. Have a loving and understanding heart. Forgive one another because God has forgiven you for Christ's sake.
Although I believe Joey has a concern for people, I don't see it manifesting itself in love or understanding.
Joey really needs to be more open minded and realize that religion is not and will probably NEVER be scientifically proven so to the point we are now, ANYONE( i repeat....ANYONE's) religion could be right. A lot of people have strong beliefs in theirs( like Joey does) but that doesn't make them right. No one will ever know. Religion just depends on the indivisuals beliefs and you will never know until you die.
so Joey, why are you telling us we are going to hell as if it is a proven fact? why are you telling us EVERYTHING ON THIS BOARD as if it is a proven fact? You have to reword your responses and realize that ANYTHING concerning religion is strictly opinion.
Joey, if you died today and realized that the heaven you have been wanting to go to is ruled by two gods and not one and there were no jesus, what would you do?
The scary part is............that this COULD happen to you Joey. Accept it. YOU could be wrong. You could also be right. But we'll never know. Because religion isn't proven. So don't inform us that we are going to hell because you will never know.
The Catholic Religion is what all of today's Protestant religion's sprouted from, making it impossible for it to be a combination of any sort of other religions. And it was set up by Jesus Christ.
Lordy Jesus, Joey, you done shut me out like I done ast you not to.
Sorry for the redneck impression, but I figured it would lighten the mood. Now that I've maybe made you laugh, I'll start by reiterating my main points, which are:
1. The Bible can basically be made to say whatever you want or need it to say. You've used it for almost all of your arguments in one form or another.
2. You are not the final authority on the Catholic religion. Your word is not law. And the words coming out of your mouth may be truth to you, but they're not to me.
3. No religion is wrong. I personally am trying my darnedest not to give a d@mn about your snide remark concerning that, but unfortunately, I do.
4. Quit being so god-danged closed-minded! RRG!
5. Don't shut me out just because you think I'm going to He11. How can I go to a place I don't believe in?
6. You are not the high authority on anything in this world; you are a student of this world and of God (or at least you say you're a student of God). If you are a student, then get to learning and stop teaching.
All right, now that I've made my points again and maybe made some new ones, I'm going to ask this: Are you trying to save people from going to He11, or are you trying to make everyone believe your way so that you have power over people? The way you beat me over the head with your heated response makes me believe the latter hypothesis more than the former. People who witness for God are gentle and loving. People who convert are forceful and belligerent. I prefer the former, and I try to be the former if asked to witness for God. You want to be a converter, as you seem to be? Go back in time to the frickin' Inquisition; you'd fit right in. It was all about religious intolerance. (Note: The last two sentences were satirical, and not meant to be taken heavily. They're said half-jokingly.)
You're not worried about me, and you're not worried about whether I go to He11 or not. You're worried about the fact that there are different opinions from yours in the world. Get used to it; you cannot change everyone's mind.
You don't really want to spread the Word of God so that you can meet all of us again in Heaven; you want to spread the Word of God so you get more Brownie points at the Pearly Gates. Well, pooh. How selfish. Hmmph. At least, if you're going to witness, be doing it for the right d@mn reasons.
I hope I've made you think, Joey. If I offended you in any way...well, then, you can tell me.
quote: My belief: No religion is wrong. Repeat: No religion is wrong. Christians go to their reward place, Muslims go to their reward place, Jews go to their reward place
That right there is the belief of many, many people, and that right there will get you to hell quicker than anything else.
Obviously, Catholicsm seeks to unite all these different beliefs, views, doctrines into one big happy family. They've been trying this thing for decades.
I've got news for you -- any person, great or small, who does not know Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and who does not believe in Jesus as the only True God...will be damned to hell for eternity.
You say you're worried about me for the unorthodox views I hold, yet you come out with that statement? God help us all.
But see, this is exactly what Jesus said would happen in the last days; people would be deceived, would follow evil spirits and doctrines, and that anybody with the slightest bit of Truth coming out of his mouth would be scoffed at (Jesus actually calls them, "scoffers.")
But, the Bible also says that because of their heart, people will ALLOW the deception to take place and will ALLOW the false views and pagan beliefs to take hold.
When Christians went in to Rome to spread the Gospel, the Romans - the one's worshipping false gods - didn't want to give up all of their beliefs.
So they incorporated their paganistic beliefs/doctrines into the new-found Christianity that was sweeping the regions.
You CANNOT believe that religions are not wrong and still be called a CHRISTIAN. It's blasphemy, it's vain, and it will SEND YOU TO HELL.
I don't have to attend Mass, or pray to Mary, or pray to saints to know that Catholicism is a cult.
But keep it up. Just keep doing what you all are doing.
I've stated the facts, and that's all I can do. It's up to your hearts and the Holy Spirit now.
I think it should be noted that saying "that the Roman Catholic Church is in itself filled with Pagan Satanists." Is stereotyping an entire religion and is no differnt than steroetyping an entire race, which is racism. I encourage everyone to boycot this board to teach certain people a lesson that feeling superior because of ones race or religion is just not right is something that should not be fostered on this site.
I would infer from your posting that you have not, otherwise you would have realized that a Catholic Mass is one of the most reverent Christian services; at least the ones I have been in. My best friend's family is Catholic, and graciously invited me one summer to attend a few Masses with them. I wasn't really sure what to expect, but she and her family were really nice and made me feel welcome. You come in, do the cross thingie (crossing yourself, I think it's called) and go to your seat, and then the priest gets up and talks a bit. You sing some songs, sit back down, do some cool speak and response stuff (the priest says something and you say something else back), kneel and pray for a bit, and then more songs and you're done. That's how it was at this particular church.
Joey, what version of the Bible did you refer to in your quotes? The reason I ask is that if it's the same Bible you use for quotes to back up all your OTHER arguments on other subjects, then it only proves my point that the Bible can be twisted around to say whatever you want it to say, just like the Beatles' songs can be twisted around to say weird stuff and whatever else.
Catholics were the original Christians; am I correct or wrong? Protestants were a branch of the Church that flourished in its own vein; again, am I correct or wrong? Just because something shows up that they see Mary as the Mother of Christ and revere her as well for helping bring Him to earth, you bash it for being "pagan", which to you is a cardinal sin (pun intended)? Feel free to bicker all you like, but you are not the final authority on the Catholic religion. JoeyDauben is a tiny, tiny speck in the religious world that your God sees. I'm not mad at you, I'm just telling you what I see in your argument, and a lot of what I see is heavily biased, with too little fact and too much personal opinion. You are free to believe whatever you feel, Joey. But saying that Catholics are flat-out wrong? I know a lot of people personally that would kick your @$$ for saying that. My belief: No religion is wrong. Repeat: No religion is wrong. Christians go to their reward place, Muslims go to their reward place, Jews go to their reward place---everybody gets rewarded for being loyal to their chosen faith. I'm sure God will smile on you for various and sundry things you've done in your faithful life, but I'm not sure that He will like that you made other people second-guess themselves, their intellect, and their religion and beliefs. What is so wrong with religions outside Christianity anyway? I personally don't see the harm in it. As long as people of that faith do not pressure me to become of that faith, then I'm OK. Plus, some pagan faiths are not---repeat, not Satanist. Granted, there probably are some, but then again, no religion is perfect, not even your beloved Christianity. From what I have read, the Wiccan faith, for instance, reveres a goddess and a god, the latter of which is called the Horned God. The Horned God is not Satan; however, he was twisted around and portrayed as such by Christian missionaries desperate to spread their faith all around the world, which they unfortunately did. I've read some sources that claim that the goddess and the god are actually two sides of the same coin; the male and female sides of the same god, which means---ha ha! They believe in one god as well. Well, would you look at that. I'm not sure if I'm correct on this, however...people that know more about the Wiccan faith or are practicing Wiccans themselves could tell you better.
I think I've finally discerned what your psychological problem may be (and yes, honestly, you do have one, Joey ): You're so terrified of going to He11 when you die that your mind has become closed to learning about other people. You have shut yourself off from learning about other religions, other cultures, and the like because you are afraid of meeting your likeness in another culture, i.e., a desperate converter in that religion who is just as closed-minded as you are. You are afraid to be converted, and yet you try to convert the rest of us with biased information and opinions from your highest authority----yourself. You almost worship your own opinions, Joey, or at least that's the way it seems to me. Now who's going against God?
Note to Everyone Else: I know that I've advised before to "attack the idea, not the person." I've violated that rule for a good reason; I am truly worried about Joey. This problem he has with relating to other cultures and accepting that yes, other people can believe differently than he does and still be right will only handicap him in the real world.
Joey, take a deep breath and listen to me: you do not have to single-handedly be responsible for "saving" the world (or brutally converting, whichever works ). I believe every religion is right, and we are all rewarded for our loyalty to our chosen faith. You believe differently about religion, and so I'm only suggesting that you open your mind as a life skill, not to convert you to my way of thinking. Think about everything said by every wise person that has posted on here, not just me, and quit trying to defend yourself. You'll never get anywhere with anybody in an argument unless you think about what the other side says first. Please, don't shut me out as you have done everyone else. I'm worried that you're going to get yourself in major trouble down the road if you don't start listening to others. You are not the high authority on anything; you are a student of this world and of God. We all would do well to remember that.
Joey, go to In Your Face and in Your School and there is a post that says GOD's Existance and just read some of the thoughts that people had. It might do you some good. You dont have to. It is just a suggestion.
What the hell is up with you Joey? Why must you bash other people's religion without knowing about it? Are you Catholic? I don't believe you have the right to judge Catholics until you have been through religion class, learned about the faith, and participated in it. How exactly do you pray? Do you ever "talk" to "spirits"? I mean, perhaps people that have died. I can tell you a lot of people do. Catholics also believe, and, yes, pray to, angels. Praying does not equal worshiping. Catholics "talk" to Mary. She is considered the mother of the church, since she was supposedly the mother of Jesus. Catholics talk to her like any might talk to a loved one that has passed on. What is the big deal with that? WHY CAN'T YOU GET OVER IT? Am I missing something? Isn't that basically what all your whining is about? Other than all the **** about all Catholics being child molesters. Oh excuse me, I mean, the higher up Catholics. Yeah. Whatever. Bull ****. I hope you go to Hell for all your judging.
Topics 
