This topic was spurred on after 2 events. One was my watching of mel Gibson's 'te patriot', in which the British are portrayed as child-murdering Nazis whereby the idea of American Nationalism is far too advances for the time. And the reading of a very enlightning book by Niall Ferguson entitled 'Empire'.

The American citizens will have to help me out on this one, but it is to my uderstanding that the gerneal portrayel of the British during the years leading up to 1776 are generally negative. The reasons for rebellion? high taxes and a lack of representation.

Here I find my first myth. The Americans who led the revolt were taxed on average 23 times less than their counterparts across the Atlantic, and were amongst (on average) the richest people in the world. They were not poor, tax ravaged people under an oppressive regime. One other point id like to make here i touched on at the beginning, and that is the level of American nationalism, without a doubt it did not exist in the sense it does today. The colonists spoke with British accents and were mostly loyal to their soverign and their motherland.

Certain revolts have been entirely mis-interpreted by myself in the past, such as the Boston tea party. Which in contrast to belief it was a result of excessive tax, was actually a protest organised by wealthy merchants unhappy that Indian Tea was ruining their trade. Funny to think the promotion of free trade was something which brought about the American revolution.

Another myth I discovered for myself was who the revolt was actually directed against, infact the war of independence bears the hallmarks of a civil war in which a lot of the fighting done wasn't between the regulars and the continentals but between the colonists themselves, in argument over loyalty.

So i'd love to hear the opinions of both American and non-American citizens on this topic. Especially Americans with experiance of how this subject is taught in schools there, were you taught the regulars were child murderers? or do you (i really hope you do) realise that Mel Gibson's interpretation of events is wildly exaggerated and biased against the English? afterall it wouldnt be the 1st time he has shown such ignorance, Braveheart springs to mind, but so too do other American films such as U571 (usurping British victories and claiming them for America) and the new '300', demonising the persians.

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Sorry, but as far as I know, not one member of this Unknown American Terrorist, #23 in "100 People who are Screwing Up America" group has said, "We are Christians and we hate these Earth-killing machines." Seems to me, just like the radical Islamists, they hide in the shadows and pounce. We did get a handful of them, thankfully.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I never said that all those terrorist groups were Christian or even religious. I was merely pointing out how there are non-Muslim terrorists.

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When you, clpo13, say that terrorist networks are not dominated by Islamic groups, something tells me you are purposely putting mental blinders on your thoughts.

And something tells me you just have a vendetta against Islam. Does that mean anything? No, of course not.

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Ever heard of the phrase "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"? That describes you to a T from everything I've read in your posts, like this one, and your responses to me in particular. Although, unlike most mental disorders, this one affects the moral senses of the brain.

Again with the trite phrases, Silver? I am no liberal, and to confuse me with one simply shows your own ignorance. I could easily say that being a conservative mucks with moral senses, but I won't because I'm not that petty. I don't delude myself into thinking I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

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By the way, care to guess who said that quote from my previous post? He was a Muslim man, an immigrant from Iraq. He was referenced in an Islam class my family and I attended once, and darned if I forgot his name. I've still got notes somewhere, so I'll try and find them.

I know it was by a Muslim. I've heard the silly thing before. It's no more factual simply because it was said by a Muslim. It's like taking Chris Rock's "Blacks in Progress" skit seriously simply because he's black.

And you completely ignored my pedophile comment. How is that any different than the Muslim quote?

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Also, let's not forget the ALF and ELF, both responsible for the destruction of innumerable Hummers and manufactured homes.

Sorry, but as far as I know, not one member of this Unknown American Terrorist, #23 in "100 People who are Screwing Up America" group has said, "We are Christians and we hate these Earth-killing machines." Seems to me, just like the radical Islamists, they hide in the shadows and pounce. We did get a handful of them, thankfully.

When you, clpo13, say that terrorist networks are not dominated by Islamic groups, something tells me you are purposely putting mental blinders on your thoughts. Or you live somewhere were ELF has committed such a crime before and you deem it the worst kind. To be fair, the worst terrorism activity that my state, Texas, has seen, to my knowledge, was the University of Texas sniper. And I do know that the shooter was a Marine. This does not paint a foul picture of our military though.

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Besides, the quote means nothing. Even if it was factual, so what? What is the point to saying such a thing? It'd be like me saying, "It is true that not all old white men are pedophiles, but it is a sad fact that almost all acts of pedophilia are committed by old white men."

Ever heard of the phrase "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"? That describes you to a T from everything I've read in your posts, like this one, and your responses to me in particular. Although, unlike most mental disorders, this one affects the moral senses of the brain.

By the way, care to guess who said that quote from my previous post? He was a Muslim man, an immigrant from Iraq. He was referenced in an Islam class my family and I attended once, and darned if I forgot his name. I've still got notes somewhere, so I'll try and find them.

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You cannot overlook the fact that the facists who twist the Islamic teachings are the ones who are doing us harm.

What, kind of like fundamentalist Jews and Christian groups that twist their respective religious texts to back their holy wars? Islam is not alone in this.

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By the way, anybody remember this quote? "It is true that not all Islamics are terrorists, but it is a sad fact that almost all acts of terror are committed by Muslims."

Nice quote, but utterly wrong. You must be forgetting Christian terrorists who bomb abortion clinics. Or how about the only recently ended violence between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland? Both sides were guilty of acts that could be construed as terrorism (IRA, anyone?). And then there are the Tamil Tigers, certainly not all Muslim (their main motive is not religious in nature). Also, let's not forget the ALF and ELF, both responsible for the destruction of innumerable Hummers and manufactured homes.

I invite you to look through this handy list of terrorist organizations, which is by no means dominated by Islamic groups.

Besides, the quote means nothing. Even if it was factual, so what? What is the point to saying such a thing? It'd be like me saying "It is true that not all old white men are pedophiles, but it is a sad fact that almost all acts of pedophilia are committed by old white men."

Remember that.

From clpo13:

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I assume you're talking about Islam? You do realize that Islam isn't all about killing infidels, right? No, of course you don't. Someone needs a course in Islam.

Maybe, but I will say this. You cannot overlook the fact that the facists who twist the Islamic teachings are the ones who are doing us harm.

So, in a way, yes, the Koran is a cause of terrorism.

By the way, anybody remember this quote? "It is true that not all Islamics are terrorists, but it is a sad fact that almost all acts of terror are committed by Muslims."

Remember that.

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You'll have to argue with a linguist on that one.

you rang?

Semite is person from a specific region of the world we generally call it the mid-east now and being semitic is being from there. The orgional group of people, the israelites, were likely all semitic but over the years the mass of the jewish population has becoming increasingly non-semitic. So anti-semitism could be properly defined as being biased against the whole mid-eastern region ("towel/raghead would then be anti-semitic as the majority of people refered to that way are indeed semites)

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Yeah well. National Socialism wasn't all about killing Jews either.

Indeed it wasn't. But whereas National Socialism was concerned with creating an all-Aryan world, Islam is concerned with creating an all-Muslim world. The difference here is that you can't become an Aryan if you aren't already one, while you can convert to Islam. With that in mind, I'll repeat: Islam is not all about killing infidels. It's hard to keep a religion going if you kill all the possible converts, isn't it?

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Dont you mean anti-Jewish comments? You told me jews weren't semites

Jews may not always be Semites, but anti-Semitic is synonymous with anti-Jewish. I didn't make it up. You'll have to argue with a linguist on that one.

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You do realize that Islam isn't all about killing infidels, right?

Yeah well. National Socialism wasn't all about killing Jews either.

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frequently uses anti-Semitic comments on his talk show

Dont you mean anti-Jewish comments? You told me jews weren't semites!

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Right. And it's in a conservative's blood to froth at the mouth at every perceived (and imaginary) threat to his or her beloved country. Tell you what, you stop whining about how the country is falling to pieces and I'll stop pointing out how flawed your thinking is.

I agree, wining won't help stop the plunge into crap-ness, but It hoists you onto the moral high horse for a little bit.

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both the US and UK captured several enigma machines but it was the poles who broke the code so any honor points there go to the nation of poland

Er, so all that stuff about England breaking Enigma codes at bletchly park was false? I do love a bit of historical revisionism.

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They detest heterosexual marriage and preach tolerance of homosexuality.

Ha! Oh wait, you're serious? Please, show me the speech where Nancy Pelosi railed against heterosexual marriage. And then get off your soap box. Fevered ranting about how preaching homosexual tolerance puts heterosexuality in jeopardy is hard on my brain. It just doesn't make any sense.

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They teach tolerance of other religions, even when the one we face now has inherent within the death of all infidels, unless they convert.

I assume you're talking about Islam? You do realize that Islam isn't all about killing infidels, right? No, of course you don't. Someone needs a course in Islam.

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They snap off crosses on war memorials and tear down The Ten Commandments monuments, yet they let someone swear into Congress with a Koran and build footbaths for Muslims.

Making room for other religions is not the same as advocating them. In other words, allowing someone to swear on the Qu'ran is no different than allowing someone to swear on the Bible, but putting a cross on a war memorial is insulting to the non-Christians who died in that same war.

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They refuse to stop supporting illegal immigrants that are practically walking across the border to get education, health care, and government handouts for free.

You try finding all the illegal immigrants in this country and figure out how to make them all leave. Or did I miss the part where whining did any good?

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Many actors bash America, even overseas, when we made them richer and more popular than they could’ve even dreamed of elsewhere.

Hey, it's the land of opportunity. Besides, I don't really see how this has any impact on the "diseased" left...

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In short, they stand against everything that made this country great in the first place.

How so? Perhaps you should start with actually showing what made this country great instead of relying on tired conservative rhetoric.

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It’s in a liberal’s blood to deny what is so painfully obvious.

Right. And it's in a conservative's blood to froth at the mouth at every perceived (and imaginary) threat to his or her beloved country. Tell you what, you stop whining about how the country is falling to pieces and I'll stop pointing out how flawed your thinking is.

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And if you don’t believe me, just look at Al Sharpton. He can’t even produce a divinity degree, yet people parade after him like a prophet. Most of us aren’t fooled, however. He’s only in for himself.

Uh, duh? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that Al Sharpton is an idiot. I mean, the man rails against any perceived threat (!) to blacks (sounds like a conservative to me), yet frequently uses anti-Semitic comments on his talk show. Yeah, real saint.

Brush up on history.

Everything you said is bogus. Of course, since facts are being stripped from history textbooks and replaced by distorted and feministic interpretations, that doesn't surprise me. “Founding Fathers” was recently replaced by “Framers”, a term meant to keep lesbians from being offended. (Light laughs) What a joke.

Now, down to brass tax. The American Revolution was a fight for independence because Britain wanted America to be something of an expansion of their empire. We wanted independence from Britain, and thanks to the drive of the Americans in the military then, we were able to write the Declaration of Independence, a document declaring our independence from Britain.

But now, the Bill of Rights and our Constitution are in jeopardy. The diseased mind of the Left, headed by the ACLU, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, and numerous others in the media are trying to dismantle the very foundations of this great country.

They detest heterosexual marriage and preach tolerance of homosexuality.
They teach tolerance of other religions, even when the one we face now has inherent within the death of all infidels, unless they convert.
They snap off crosses on war memorials and tear down The Ten Commandments monuments, yet they let someone swear into Congress with a Koran and build footbaths for Muslims.
They refuse to stop supporting illegal immigrants that are practically walking across the border to get education, health care, and government handouts for free.
Many actors bash America, even overseas, when we made them richer and more popular than they could’ve even dreamed of elsewhere.

In short, they stand against everything that made this country great in the first place.

Many will deny this. It’s in a liberal’s blood to deny what is so painfully obvious. Someday, the American people will see what fools they truly are. And if you don’t believe me, just look at Al Sharpton. He can’t even produce a divinity degree, yet people parade after him like a prophet. Most of us aren’t fooled, however. He’s only in for himself.

Sorry, Martin Luther King Jr. I’m sorry this false advocate is twisting what you worked so hard to accomplish.

I wouldn't take Mel Gibson's opinion on bologna, nevermind American history.

Anyway, I don't find any problem with how schoolchildren are being taught American history. Yes, we're taught that the British were oppressors, yes we're also taught that the Boston Tea Party was a revolt against the empire, and yes that the Revolutionary War was simply an us-vs-them type of situation.

But there is nothing wrong with that.

It's partially ignorant, but for the most part, it paints a pretty accurate picture (especially for children and young teenagers) what life was like before 1776. We felt oppressed, we fought, we won. Then, we got pissed at ourselves, fought, and became a whole country. We developed a government, agriculture and industry, and a social structure that has bent and twisted to accomodate everyone (slowly, but surely) in only 300 years. It's an impressive resumé, and it's taught in the simplest way possible.

I mean, we're also taught Christopher Columbus discovered America, when it was the Vikings (and those who traveled across the Bering Strait before that.) We're taught Thanksgiving was a time of peace and love between the pilgrims and the Indians. It's all merely historical folklore that is always disspelled with time.

And even if it isn't, who cares? It's a hell of a lot easier than explaining slaughter, tyranny, greed and dishonor to a generation of innocent kids.

I think you'd enjoy "America: The Book," risk. Very amusing satire on how skewed American textbooks can be.

On "The Patriot": Everyone I know here pretty much understands it's an action movie and not a historical document.

In high school we were taught that the country was extremely divided and fractured during the early days of the Revolution, and much was made about the post-war debating and re-organization to form the Constitution we have today. It seems that alot of what Europeans and Brits get about our understanding of our history is taken from Hollywood movies, which is missing huge chunks of what we're actually taught.

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well Britain wasn't in dire financial straits

intresting, the way it's taught over here is that the british took their ball and went home under a combonation of mounting debt (left over from the last war with france which supposedly started the whole taxation thing in the first place) and that they were fighting a war so far from home and couldn't keep up momentum

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which remain loyal until today

sorta loyal any way, most canadians I've talked to don't even know that they're subjects of the Queen... which makes even america's paltry historical and political education seem robust by comparison if those I talked to represent the average canadian

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as to the Enigma of U-571 that was a polish victory if any victory, both the US and UK captured several enigma machines but it was the poles who broke the code so any honor points there go to the nation of poland

very interesting thanks for that one.

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And as I've learned it the Brit soldiers were just that soldiers in an amrpit part of the empire they really didn't want to be in, a tradition in arms going back millenia to the first guy who had to stand guard on a camp. However I am not a typical American in this regard as I am one of the few who actually know and enjoy history

Now I have heard some Unsavory things about the Hessian mercs but that raises another question you might be able to awnser risk, how did the British Empire afford mercs given their dire financial straits?

As to patriotism like Gibsons in the film, that actually is what's taught we're supposed to belive that all colonial troops were like that, most do not belive but only becuase they're to stupid to understand what the teacher is saying in the first place.

well Britain wasn't in dire financial straits, we had also adopted that great tradition of National Debt from the Dutch so money was never a problem.

I'm glad there are some which understand what really happened amp, and i do hope the rest follow suit and realise the British army failed to quell the revolters as much by their fighting spirit as by the generals unwillingness to fight their own citizens (and of course with French help who were out for revenge). It's interesting to note 100,000 loyalists fled to Canada following American independence, securing a dominant Anglo influence over those lands...which remain loyal until today

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the new '300', demonising the persians.

now, now that's a movie based off a comic book and isn't meant to be historically accurate at all and it's about two nations (Sparta and Persia) that no longer exist... unless there have been some severe changes happening in Iran while I wasn't looking (like the Sha coming back in power

as to the Enigma of U-571 that was a polish victory if any victory, both the US and UK captured several enigma machines but it was the poles who broke the code so any honor points there go to the nation of poland

And as I've learned it the Brit soldiers were just that soldiers in an amrpit part of the empire they really didn't want to be in, a tradition in arms going back millenia to the first guy who had to stand guard on a camp. However I am not a typical American in this regard as I am one of the few who actually know and enjoy history

Now I have heard some Unsavory things about the Hessian mercs but that raises another question you might be able to awnser risk, how did the British Empire afford mercs given their dire financial straits?

As to patriotism like Gibsons in the film, that actually is what's taught we're supposed to belive that all colonial troops were like that, most do not belive but only becuase they're to stupid to understand what the teacher is saying in the first place.