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Registered: June 24, 2004
Posts: 17
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"Animals are God's creatures, not human property, nor utilities, nor resources, nor commodities, but precious beings in God's sight. ... Christians whose eyes are fixed on the awfulness of crucifixion are in a special position to understand the awfulness of innocent suffering. The Cross of Christ is God's absolute identification with the weak, the powerless, and the vulnerable, but most of all with unprotected, undefended, innocent suffering." --Rev. Andrew Linzey
Jesus' message is one of love and compassion, yet there is nothing loving or compassionate about factory farms and slaughterhouses, where billions of animals live miserable lives and die violent, bloody deaths. Jesus mandates kindness, mercy, compassion, and love for all God's creation. He would be appalled by the degree of suffering we inflict on animals to indulge our acquired taste for their flesh.
Christians have a choice. When we sit down to eat, we can add to the level of violence, misery, and death in the world, or we can respect His creation with a vegetarian diet.
The Garden of Eden, God's perfect world, was vegetarian (Gen. 1:29-30). Immediately, God calls this ideal and non-exploitative relationship "good" (Gen. 1:31). There follow many years of fallen humanity, when people held slaves, waged war, ate animals and committed various other violent acts. But the prophets tell us that the peaceable kingdom will be nonviolent and vegetarian; even the lion will lie down with the lamb (e.g., Isaiah 11). Jesus is the Prince of Peace, who ushers in this new age of nonviolence. When Christians pray, "Your will be done, on Earth as it is in heaven," the one prayer given to us by Jesus, this obligates us to change our lives, to make choices that are as merciful and loving as possible. There will be no factory farms and slaughterhouses in heaven.
God created every animal with the capacity for pain and suffering. But on today's factory farms, animals are dehorned, debeaked, and castrated without anesthesia. To maximize profits, they are crowded together in the least space possible, and are genetically bred, so that most suffer lameness, crippling leg deformities, or bone breaks, because their legs can't keep up with their scientifically enhanced bodies. Finally, they are trucked without food or water, through all weather extremes, to a frightening and hellish death.
A vegetarian diet is good for your health and spares animals unimaginable suffering and violence. Remember: As we do to the least, so we do to Him.
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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Glad to hear it, plasteredwalls!  If you need any help/advice, noisemail me! quote: So water pollution is a reason for you being vegetarian?
Do I have to repeat myself? Fish are animals, and vegetarians don't eat animals. Plus, when wild fish are caught, a lot of other animals are caught along with them (they're referred to as "bycatch"), and this can harm the whole ecosystem. The www.fishinghurts.com website has more info if you want it. quote: May I remind you that when Able sacrificed his lamb to God, he was blessed? Or when....ok, I can't remember his name, but I'm pretty certain it was Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son for the Lord, when he didn't have to in the end, was told to kill the ram that had caught it's horns in a bush nearby instead?
See this from earlier in the thread: quote: I addressed this earlier in the thread. But I'll just do it all over again since it was early on in the thread: quote: There are many places in the Bible where God commanded the Jewish people to sacrifice animals. Doesn't this demonstrate that God approves of us killing and using animals? In The Slaughter of Terrified Beasts, Reverend J. R. Hyland, an ordained, evangelical minister, points out that the later prophets were the first voices in recorded history to proclaim that "the suffering and death of animals was repugnant to God," coming as they did roughly a century before the Indian sage Mahavira, who founded Jainism, and the Buddha. In the following passages, these prophets flatly asserted, in the face of extensive Biblical testimony to the contrary, that God had never authorized animal sacrifice. What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hands? [Emphasis added] Trample my courts no more; bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moons and sabbaths and calling of convocations [ceremonies at which animals were sacrificed] - I cannot endure - they are iniquity, even your solemn convocations. Your new moons and appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am tired of putting up with them. When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood (Isaiah 1:11-15). But to sacrifice an ox or to kill a man, slaughter a sheep or break a dog's neck, offer grain or offer pig's blood, burn incense as a token and worship an idol -- all these are the chosen practices of men who revel in their own loathsome rites (Isaiah 66:3). For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. (Jeremiah 7:22). I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not savor the smoke from your solemn assemblies. Though you offer me burnt offerings and meat offerings, I will not accept them; neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take away from me the noise of your songs; for I will not hear the melody of your viols. But let justice roll down like waters and righteousness as an everlasting stream. Did you offer me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? (Amos 5:21-25). For I have desired mercy and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings (Hosea 6:6). They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of my offerings, and eat it, but the LORD does not accept them; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins; they shall return to Egypt [i.e. to slavery] (Hosea 8:13). Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with tens of thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God (Micah 6:6-8). Writers who believe that the divine inspiration of the Bible does not allow for the existence of disagreements within it argue that the prophets are not really condemning sacrifices, but what they call "empty sacrifices," that is, sacrifices that are not accompanied by true repentance and a change of heart. But there are two problems with this interpretation. First, it is not supported by the plain meaning of the texts. Each of these passages flatly condemns all animal sacrifice, not just sacrifice that is unaccompanied by a change of heart. In straightforward language, they call for repentance instead of sacrifices, not repentance in addition to sacrifices. In fact, several call for repentance for having offered sacrifices -- "Your hands are full of blood." Second, the italicized portions from Isaiah and Amos ask rhetorical questions about the origin of animal sacrifice which make it plain that these prophets did not believe that sacrifice had been commanded by God, while the passage from Jeremiah flatly states that it had not. All seven texts contradict the extensive passages in Exodus, Leviticus, and elsewhere which claim that animal sacrifices were divinely ordained. On the question of animal sacrifice, the Bible presents us with two views of God. In one, after the fashion of the gods in other ancient Near Eastern religions, God demands cruelty by insisting that worshipers must torment, terrify, and slaughter innocent creatures. In the second, God calls for compassion and mercy by insisting that worshipers not inflict suffering and death upon the harmless. The question then becomes, which view represents the God of infinite justice, love, and mercy described in Jewish and Christian teaching? And which represents a misreading of God's will by people who were, perhaps unconsciously, influenced by the superstitious practices they saw all around them? Animal sacrifice continued to be part of mainstream Jewish practice until the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, following a rebellion against Roman occupation. Since sacrifice could be practiced only in the Temple, there has been no animal sacrifice in Judaism for nearly two thousand years, with the sole exception of the lambs who are slaughtered each year to be eaten at the Passover seder. Dr. Roberta Kalechofsky has written Haggadah for the Liberated Lamb, Haggadah for the Vegetarian Family, and The Journey of the Liberated Lamb to help observant Jews make the transition to a cruelty-free seder while remaining faithful to their traditions. (source: http://fundforanimals.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=641 ) Click on these links for more articles regarding this: http://www.jewishveg.com/faq03.htmlhttp://www.jesusveg.com/qow10198.htmlAnd here's a link I wish I would have found sooner: http://www.christianveg.com/hgc-replies.htm (animal sacrifices are mentioned there as well) Oh, and here's another thing on the Jesus/animal sacrifice thing, Scottie: http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/hraslaughter.htm
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Registered: July 07, 2004
Posts: 457
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OK, I'd like to correct myself; I typed in "Able" instead of "Abel". My bad.
Member of the NDLC*, est. 2005 (National Democratic-Liberal Coalition)
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Registered: July 07, 2004
Posts: 457
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lol. this thread has given me a good laugh for the day. not that I have anything against vegetarians, just the thought that all Christians should be vegetarians is funny. May I remind you that when Able sacrificed his lamb to God, he was blessed? Or when....ok, I can't remember his name, but I'm pretty certain it was Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son for the Lord, when he didn't have to in the end, was told to kill the ram that had caught it's horns in a bush nearby instead? Just a couple little things, thought I should mention.
Member of the NDLC*, est. 2005 (National Democratic-Liberal Coalition)
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Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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thanks slewinca your links lead me to even another site and i found tons of benefits of a REAL vegetarian diet. i was just basing what i thought a vegetarian off of my friend who claims to be a vegetarian(she's not my friend anymroe but that's besides the point) anyways yea after actually learning about the benefits of a TRUE vegetarian diet, i've decided to try it. meaning, i am not eatng fish anymore, or chicken, or any form of meat. thanks for shedding a light on this
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Registered: June 02, 2004
Posts: 8337
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So water pollution is a reason for you being vegetarian? From what I've heard though, the actual fish itself can be more beneficial than the effects of mercury - so that even if there were a level to worry about, the actual bonuses tuna (the #1 example) is greater than the downside of mercury in it.
Live and Let Live. Love and Let Love.
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote: So can MSG, but I don't hear you condemning that.
That's because it isn't all that relevant to the topics that I post about. MSG is a flavor enhancer that is added to food (they don't seem to do it as often now due to the outcry over its side-effects, but it's still in quite a few packaged foods), while mercury in fish comes from the environment they live in (i.e. polluted water). And I think mercury is probably much more toxic than MSG (while there are some people who are allergic to MSG, mercury is harmful to everyone, especially children).
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Registered: June 02, 2004
Posts: 8337
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So can MSG, but I don't hear you condemning that.
Live and Let Live. Love and Let Love.
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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Look hon, you're not a vegetarian. A vegetarian doesn't eat any animal, regardless whether it's called "meat", "poultry" or "seafood". Don't believe me? Then read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VegetarianMaybe you should give a s***, because fish can feel pain too. Please read what's on this website: http://www.fishinghurts.com/ Plus, I wouldn't want to risk consuming mercury by eating fish (that stuff can really screw you up).
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Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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But to answer the original question. No it is not wrong to eat meat. It is wrong to overeat. ie. gluttony But, no, it is not wrong to eat meat. If you don't want to eat meat, then don't. If you do want to eat meat, go ahead.
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Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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Okay I thought it was poultry but I just looked it up. You're right it isn't poultry. But I've looked around and things like resipe books are claiming that fish, meant, and poultry and three different categories. I am a vegetarian. I do not eat beef or pork. I eat fish. Because I, personally, consider fish to be seafood, and not meat. If you want to consider it meat, fine. I don't really give a shit.
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Registered: June 02, 2004
Posts: 8337
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quote: Fish isn't meat. It's poultry.
Fish IS meat, and it is NOT poultry. Poultry describes a domesticated gallinaceous BIRD.
Live and Let Live. Love and Let Love.
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Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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quote: Originally posted by Amber3: And why on EARTH would Jesus have eaten fish after arising and showing himself to his disciples? If it was wrong, Jesus would not have done it.
I believe the answer to this is simple. Fish isn't meat. It's poultry. You've mistaken vegetarians for vegans. I haven't read most people's comments. But i'll just clear this up. Vegetarians don't eat meat. Vegans don't eat any food of animal origin. This includes meat, fish, dairy etc.
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Registered: March 02, 2006
Posts: 5
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I believe that God created animals for our use. Even consumption. Why else would he have made our bodies need many of the protiens and nutrients that are in meat? And why on EARTH would Jesus have eaten fish after arising and showing himself to his disciples? If it was wrong, Jesus would not have done it. But what I don't believe is that God intended us to pack 4 cows in a 1 cow pen, stuff them full of hormones so they grow faster and bigger, then cut them open alive. Eating animal does not mean needlessly torturing them. I don't believe that animals should be killed unless every part that we can use, is used. Even though they don't have souls, they're still alive, and should be treated kindly. We may rule over them, but we don't have to be tyrants. Take a page from the New Testament.
GRACE.
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Registered: November 21, 2005
Posts: 25
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God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." -Genesis 1:28 Then God said, "I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." -Genesis 1:29 And to all the beasts of the earth and all that move on the ground- everything that has the breath of life in it- I give every green plant for food." And it was so. -Genesis 1:30 I'll try to stay neutral on this subject, as I am for animal rights but I still eat meat. I would like to point out that God says that we may eat every seed bearing plant and every fruit with seed in it. He does not, however, say that we may eat the animals. But He also says to the animals that they may have every green plant for food. Many animals are carnivores. We don't advocate for their prey, do we? Just for the sake of argument, let's say that the whole world did stop eating meat altogether. They would still be eaten by each other! But as for the inhuman killings of the animals in the slaughterhouses for our consumption, I agree that something needs to be fixed. But there's not really much we can do about people and animals that eat meat. You can't go up to a lion and say, "Please don't eat that gazelle." because the lion... well you get the picture. Humans wouldn't attack you but there are so many meat-eating people in this world that it would be hard to turn it around.
In Georgia where children work day and night in the cotton mills they have just passed a bill to protect song birds. What about the little children from whom all song is gone? - Mary H. Jones
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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singer500, pick up your Bible, and go to Genesis 1:29 and then to Genesis 2:18-19. Doesn't say anything about animals being created for consumption, do they? (if you don't have one handy, go to this website: http://bible.gospelcom.net/ ) Why should the behaviors of other animals justify the things humans do? Animals steal, kill another animals' young, fight and even commit rape, but that obviously doesn't justify us doing those things, does it?
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Registered: November 25, 2005
Posts: 159
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Why were animals made? To eat. Other animals eat each other. I'm not saying that I agree with killing animals just because, but we do have to eat. Meat also gives us many nutrients that we need. Any Christian would know that animals were made to be eaten. God wouldn't have made them just 'cause.
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote: God bless whoever invented high fructose corn syrup.
Have to disagree with you there. I have a sensitivity to the stuff, one of my ears gets hot and the skin above my eyes gets flaky when I eat something with high fructose corn syrup in it. (not instantly of course) My mom is sensitive to it too, more so than me actually. I try to avoid it, which is hard because they put it in just about everything these days. quote: And now you've made curious as to what humans taste like...
Actually, there's a vegan alternative to human flesh for recovering cannibals: http://www.eathufu.com/home.asp (See the FAQ page) So if you're really curious...
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Registered: March 08, 2004
Posts: 1685
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quote: Originally posted by Slewinca: Eh, it's not that hard to refute actually. If humans tasted good (I don't know if they do since I've never eaten one  but I have read that pork is a lot like human flesh), does that mean we're supposed to be cannibals? If a deadly poison tasted good, that obviously doesn't mean that we were meant to poison ourselves either. So this isn't really about taste.
True, but it is interesting to note that most naturally occuring foods that are good for us tend to taste good, while most naturally occuring poisons don't. Of course, we've put those dark days of "if it tastes good, it's probably good for you" behind us. God bless whoever invented high fructose corn syrup. And now you've made curious as to what humans taste like...
And then, as the books were told, Fina replied: "A can of worms, my dear friend? What has this to do with reason?"
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Registered: November 14, 2005
Posts: 29
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quote: Originally posted by TeenAutonomy: Religious fanatics need to kill themselves.
k in that case believe th simple logic that our teeth haven yet evolved to eat meat compare ur canines to that of a dog or a tiger u ll understand wat m sayin....k if u say i cook my meat n eat t dude.... u re makin a manipulation on an existin fact for better tastin food.... manipulation of nature has led mother earth to th pathetic situation she s in today.....
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