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Registered: April 06, 2005
Posts: 4
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This is one heavy topic people...seriously we could debate this for hours. From my perspective I don't believe eating meat is a sin although I myself don't indulge in it. I've grown up hearing this argument over and over again because of my religious believes (vegetarianism is one of the major believes of my religion, although not everyone is vegetarian and there is major debate within my church about it) My stand on the whole topic is that God, when he created human life never intended us to eat meat but because of sin it had to be implimented into our diet for our survival. Infact he was the one to first kill an animal here on earth. Not to mention later on in the life time of Jesus he and his disciples ate plenty of meat and they weren't burned by any fire sent down from heaven because of this. So its obvious, in my humble opinion, that eating meat is not a sin in any form or fashion. Although I do think its wrong to eat some meat, not a sin, because of the guidelines in the bible ( Gensis 20) of what exactly we should eat. Now for those of you who don't wanta hear the mumbo jumbo from the bible look at it from a health stand point. Meat is incredibly unhealthy for everyone espcially red meat. So I guess in the end it all comes down to what you beleive is right and wrong for you ( yes, listen to that little inner voice). I personally choose not to eat any meat because I've just seen way to many disgustig things to do with it and wouldn't want to put that crap into my body (what you eat is what you are) but in the end does it really matter what the heck a person eats? that doesn't make them who they are but hey this is a thread about vegetarianism so I'll just shut up now!
That Crazy Blonde with Passion
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13976
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and thank you Slewinca for your comments
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote: God does not change His laws without reason and He certainly does not change His laws to accomodate sin.
Hopefully you won't mind me thinking out loud for a moment, then I'll get to the central point I'm trying to make: Now I'm not an expert on Christianity, but to me, it seems like the whole thing with Jesus-saving-you-no-matter-what-sin-you-commit-as-long-as-you-believe thing kind of accomodates sin, does it not? With the comment you made on the Meet your Meat thread making the first theory on that verse somewhat void (the lack or crops one), the only theory left is that it was a concession to mankind's desire to eat flesh. Now I know you said that He would not change His laws to accomodate sin, but was anyone saying that eating meat is definitely a sinful behavior? Let me clarify: Most people consider slavery to be wrong, but the bible permits it and even gives guidelines for it. Does that mean we should return to slavery because the bible permits it? What I'm trying to say is that eating meat, like slavery, is morally wrong. (in that it harms God's creatures, the earth and it diverts food which could have gone to hungry people to feeding livestock) There is another example of God conceding to mankind's lust for flesh on the bible, in Numbers 11:4-33. But immediately after the people started eating the meat, He struck them with a deadly plague. As with in Numbers, the concession to eat meat in Genesis also seemed to have a consecuence (Genesis 9:5). This certainly would explain the marked reduction of lifespans in the people after Noah as noted in the bible. Though meat eating may not be a sin per se, it is probably not the ideal situation God would have wanted for mankind (again, as illustrated in Genesis 1:29-30). If you think I'm being a little too tubborn on this and that I am denying the verses you site, then read this: quote: How can you use Scripture to prove that Jesus was a vegetarian, while discounting Scripture that disagrees with your assessment?
There is an adage that says, "The Bible can be used to justify any position." To a degree, that's a fair statement. Reading the Scriptures, one is presented with many messages that can't coexist. That is where theology comes in--making sense of sacred texts, attempting to discern the true meaning of divinity and existence.
Most reputable theologians consider Biblical interpretation to be the product of "progressive revelation"; that is, our understanding develops over time, in the same way that our understanding of science or linguistics or even computers develops over time. There is not one stationary truth, valid for all eternity. For example, 200 years ago, it was considered fine by most to be a slaveholding Christian; 300 years ago, Galileo was sentenced to the torture chamber for his belief that the Earth is not the center of the universe; 500 years ago, Martin Luther declared that Jews' "houses and synagogues should be set on fire" and called for death to Jews who attempt to worship or teach in public. Today, despite Biblical texts that justify these and other atrocities, we understand that the nature of God precludes slavery, torture, and anti-Semitism.
Scholarship and new discoveries, as well as a growing development of ideas, ethics, and common purpose, govern how we view Biblical revelation. God, in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), demands death for all manner of "sins," from adultery to sorcery to cursing one's parents. One story in the book of Numbers tells of a man who gathers wood on the Sabbath stoned to death in front of Moses, "as Yahweh had commanded." Most of the Patriarchs had slaves and multiple wives. Samuel, speaking for God, orders Saul to "kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***" (1 Samuel 15). Pope John Paul II has said that any interpretation of Scripture that contradicts a rational understanding of God's goodness and mercy is incorrect.
So, yes, there are Scriptural passages that justify eating and exploiting animals. But there are many more passages that justify killing innocents in war, taking slaves, burning witches, anti-Semitism, and other clearly merciless, violent, and immoral actions. The good news is that there are far more and stronger Biblical arguments for treating all animals, human or not, as fellow creatures of God, worthy of respect and compassion, to be cared for, not exploited, tortured, or killed.
Most of us would agree that harming a dog or cat is unethical--unChristian even. It is both rational and Biblically sound to suggest, then, that harming any living being, including cows, chickens, pigs, and fishes, is equally immoral. A loving and merciful God, the God of the prophets and nonviolent garden of Eden, would not countenance animal abuse. The "Prince of Peace," prophesied in Isaiah, is Jesus Christ, according to Christian tradition. It would be unthinkable for the Prince of Peace to eat animals, considering God's original plan for the garden of Eden and Isaiah's vision of the "end time"--when even the lion will lie down with the lamb, and violence and bloodshed will cease to exist.
From http://www.jesusveg.com/qow399.htmlWell, that's all for now. Try butchering that in one sentence!
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13976
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thank you scottie
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: April 03, 2005
Posts: 113
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I feel that this will turn into an argument thread and suck me in if I post here, so I will just limit my post to the idea that God would not have said that we may eat meat unless He meant it (Gen. 9:3). God does not change His laws without reason and He certainly does not change His laws to accomodate sin. On Meet Your Meat a horrifically similar debate is going on. I add it because someone may feel a need to look at this similar argument to get an idea of what is not being expressed here from either side of this one.
Nose-On! Spray directly up your nose! (May cause blindness, hives, or immediate death. Do not take if...)
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote: you can not get all the vitmens and minerals your body requires eatting only veggies. what people need is a balanced diet with meat and veggies and every thinh else.
I feel the need to post this once again: quote: "Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence." From http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/17084.cfm . The American Dietetic Association isn't stupid, you know.
quote: also people eating critters is enviromentally sound as is hunting it keeps the animals numbers down which keeps ecosystems balanced
Has it not occured to you that a large majority of meat-eaters eat farmed animals not wild animals? And as it so happens, even environmental groups say that factory farming does considerable damage to the surrounding environment (like The Union of Concerned Scientists, Sierra Club and EarthSave). In fact, the Sierra Club website has a whole page on the environmental effects of factory farms: http://www.sierraclub.org/factoryfarms/ (use the links on the left side of the page to navigate the section) The following websites also provide proof of factory farms' environmental impacts: http://www.goveg.com/feat/enviro.html http://www.peta.org/feat/earthday/ http://www.earthsave.org/environment/ http://www.factoryfarming.com/environment.htm http://www.tryveg.com/cfi/toc/?v=05opening (use the arrow buttons to navigate through the section) http://www.choosevegetarian.com/earth_overview.aspevaveg, I suggest that you include one of these sites (the Earth Day one perhaps?) in your signature so people won't annoy you about it. quote: No fries. Fries = bad, even though they're technically veggies. Yes, my vegetarian friends, even some vegetables (fried potatoes, for example) can be bad for you!
I'm not that stupid. Besides, McDonalds' fries have beef fat in them, so no, they're not a good thing for veggies to eat either.
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Registered: March 01, 2005
Posts: 86
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quote: quote:
and many vegetarians out there may be thinking... "you dont need meat to live, so that previous statement is a bunch of blech."
but in many cases, meat is necessary- easier to get a hold of, and provides many essential nutrients.
Please see the link I posted from the American Dietetic Association.
Your sister wouldn't be very happy with you right now...
I see where you're coming from.. You back your arguments well. Nonetheless, my habits are hard to change.. i am not swayed... i eat meat. |
Registered: June 14, 2004
Posts: 2721
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quote: Originally posted by ampmaster:
Jesus and God are for the well being of mankind spritually, mentally and physicaly you can not get all the vitmens and minerals your body requires eatting only veggies. what people need is a balanced diet with meat and veggies and every thinh else. also people eating critters is enviromentally sound as is hunting it keeps the animals numbers down which keeps ecosystems balanced
I agree wholeheartedly. What you get from meat if very important. I'm currently trying to lose weight so I'm dropping the carbs and increasing the protein (i.e. meat). I just got two double cheeseburgers at McDonald's. No fries. Fries = bad, even though they're technically veggies. Yes, my vegetarian friends, even some vegetables (fried potatoes, for example) can be bad for you! And to the environmentalist that responded underneath amp: I'm taking an environmental AP class right now and everything amp said is true. Eating meat is good. To Slewinca: Haven't got the time at the moment to check out the sites but I will soon. I swear.
Belief makes things real/Makes things feel, feel alright/Belief makes things true/Things like you, you and I
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13976
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Jesus and God are for the well being of mankind spritually, mentally and physicaly you can not get all the vitmens and minerals your body requires eatting only veggies. what people need is a balanced diet with meat and veggies and every thinh else. also people eating critters is enviromentally sound as is hunting it keeps the animals numbers down which keeps ecosystems balanced
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: April 04, 2005
Posts: 3
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I didn't read all 8 pages but I feel like I must comment. I grew up Seventh-Day Adventist (it is a Christian church) and 60 percent of Adventists and up to 90 percent of our clergy are vegetarian. Not just because we think that God cares for animals but also because it is better for your body. (There is tons of protien in tofu and too much is bad for your body) Plus factory farming gives off more polution than any other industry in the United States. It may have been ok in Jesus time, but not now.
Real enviromentalist, don't eat meat.
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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*sigh* I guess as the vegetarian/vegan ambassador of these boards I am required to meet your demands. Ugh, even I'm sick of this thread now... Since you two are new (I think) to this thread, look at some of the sites below for an introduction to the subject: quote:
quote: quote:
26Then God said, "Let (AE)Us make (AF)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (AG)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
quote:
28God blessed them; and God said to them, "(AJ)Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
From The Book of Genesis
God gave the earth and every thimg on it to man includeing critters
*pulls out steak and begins eating*
Fine, I'll quote Genesis too: quote: 29: And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.
30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
Obviously, man's dominion at that time did not allow the killing and eating of animals. Also, please read part of the post I made at the Meet your Meat thread: quote: On Genesis 9:3: http://www.all-creatures.org/discuss/gen9.1-4.html http://www.jesusveg.com/qow1199.html http://hometown.aol.com/arbiblebites/Meat.html http://www.jewishveg.com/torah.html quote: But didn't God give humanity permission to use animals for food? In Genesis we are told that, "God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase, and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you shall fall upon all wild animals on earth, on all birds of heaven, on everything that moves upon the ground and all fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Every creature that lives and moves shall be food for you; I give you them all, as once I gave you all green plants'" (Genesis 9:1-3; the last sentence alludes to Genesis 1:29, which we quoted above, and shows conclusively that this verse had, in fact, mandated a vegan diet). The first question we have to ask about this passage is, is it credible that God really gave permission for humans to eat meat? Did the loving, compassionate God of Judaism and Christianity really endorse the idea that "the fear and dread of you shall fall upon" all nonhuman animals? Or is it more likely that this passage is the result of a misreading of God's will by men who were sincere but still human and subject to error, still susceptible, as are all of us, even the most pious, to be misled by our own appetites and the customs which surround and shape us? As we remarked earlier, not even the authors of the Bible were immune to their own human nature. This is a question that everyone must answer on the basis of his or her own conscience. For myself, I know that the God whom I find revealed in the Jewish and Christian scriptures would never grant those created in God's own image and given charge of the care of creation permission to fill sentient beings with "fear and dread" for the sake of our own pleasures and conveniences. But suppose your answer to this question is different than mine? What if, after examining your conscience, you still believe that God did give us permission to eat meat? What then? The first thing that strikes us about this passage is that it is not a commandment; it is not even a recommendation; it is no more than what we called it: permission. Eating animal products is not presented here as a religious requirement or virtuous act; it is simply -- for the first time since creation -- allowed. Many scholars, both Christian and Jewish, see in this permission a reluctant, even sorrowful, recognition by God that humanity was still too mired in ignorance and selfishness to live up to the ideal of the peaceable kingdom that had existed in Eden and is foretold to come again by the prophets. They would make a distinction between what God wants us to do and what, recognizing our unique blend of weakness and stubbornness, God has allowed us to do. In the words of Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, "By definition, God is the Compassionate One . . . Only after the flood, when God saw that man's instinct was deeply imbedded with a desire to kill, did He allow man to spill the blood of an animal and eat its flesh . . . It's a concession, not the ideal." And shouldn't it be the goal of every Jew and every Christian to rise to the ideal rather than sink to the concession? In case someone objects that God would not make concessions of this sort to humanity, the Bible cites other instances of God doing precisely that. After the Exodus, when the people of Israel wanted a king to rule over them in place of the judges who had led them until then, God tried to talk them out of it, but they persisted until finally God grudgingly relented (I Samuel 8:5-22). And in the New Testament, Jesus describes divorce as just such a divine concession to the hardness of the human heart (Mark 10:4-5). According to this interpretation, God has given humanity a high road and a low road, and the freedom to choose. And so the issue becomes, Why -- even if it may be permitted -- would a Jew or Christian who is trying to reflect God's love and compassion in his daily life want to eat meat, eggs, or dairy? The raising and slaughter of animals for food and fabric causes intense physical pain, emotional distress, and premature death to nine billion animals every year in the United States alone. This entire system of torment and death exists solely for those who consume animal products. If it were not for them, no animals would be confined on factory farms and no animals would be slaughtered. The Judeo-Christian virtues are love and compassion, nurturing those in need, and relieving those in distress. Why would any conscientious Jew or Christian -- or anyone else for that matter -- want to be responsible for so much suffering and death? (from http://www.fundforanimals.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=640&table=documents and http://fundforanimals.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=641)
OK I'm done, for now.
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13976
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thats what I thought whos up for BBQ Ribs and Bible discussions?
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: June 14, 2004
Posts: 2721
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heh...well, I've never even heard of this before. No Christians (not even the diehard fundamentalists I know) have ever said Christians should be vegetarian. This is completely new. I thought it might be a joke when I first clicked on it!
Belief makes things real/Makes things feel, feel alright/Belief makes things true/Things like you, you and I
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13976
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any veggies gonna take me on when hit with evidence come on I'm starved for a good argument
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13976
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quote: 26Then God said, "Let (AE)Us make (AF)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (AG)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
quote: 28God blessed them; and God said to them, "(AJ)Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
From The Book of Genesis God gave the earth and every thimg on it to man includeing critters *pulls out steak and begins eating*
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: June 14, 2004
Posts: 2721
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Well, I know I'm jumping into the middle of this but this is my first visit to the Environment boards and I wish to share my lovely opinion: The author of this post quoted a reverend, not that Bible. I'm sorry but, to me, that automatically discredits the post. She makes some good points but, while she mentions some verses, still, none of what she says is directly from the Bible. I highly doubt that many vegetarians are vegetarians because of God or because they're Christian. And I just don't believe that I am denied meat because I'm Christian. Personally, I think that's bull****.
Belief makes things real/Makes things feel, feel alright/Belief makes things true/Things like you, you and I
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Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote: Slewinca...
You obviously are more well informed on this subject than I.
Finally, a little respect!  quote: I just can't imagine that god would deny me philly cheese steak sandwiches and steak chalupas... Am I really living in Sin by eating animals?
Well, to give $ to an industry that treats animals in a way that God would never endorse ( www.meetyourmeat.com www.factoryfarming.com) is at the very least, wrong. Whether it's a sin equal to say, stealing or adultery, I don't really know. You may have to decide that for yourself. quote: I said that because I have heard many vegans (on the radio, news) that say that they eat fish because they dont have feelings (assuming cows do..). And theyre not upset when one of their young die...
They must have been some pretty dumb vegans. Vegan, by definition, means that you don't eat or use anything that comes from an animal. Fish = Animals. (here's another site on veganism BTW: www.vegan.org) Sure, they may or may not mourn for thier young, but the doesn't mean that they cannot feel physical pain and suffer. The jury's still out on whether fish feel pain when they're on a hook or caught in some other way, but I feel it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt. (see this site for info on the fish-feel-pain side of the argument: www.fishinghurts.com) The biggest reason why I don't eat fish (and I'm a vegetarian) is because of the environmental impacts catching/raising fish and seafood has. (Overfishing that threatens wild fish stocks, unintended bycatch [which can include dolphins, sea turtles, or other threatened or endangered marine life], water pollution [from large fish farms] and etc.) quote: God wasnt saying not to eat meat, rather that herbs were all right to eat.
But this verse (or any other verse about Eden) does not mention meat eating being allowed in Eden, and that's pretty good evidence that Adam and Eve were not allowed to eat animals during their stay in Eden. In other words, it was what God originally intended for mankind. There are several theories about why the permission to eat animals was granted after the flood, but I think these two are the more likely ones: 1. The flood wiped out all the crops and plant life, so Noan and hif family had to eat animals until the plants grew back. 2. The permission was given as a consession to mankind's desire for flesh. So, yeah.
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