Someone has probably already said this, but I'lls ay it again. You are missing one crucial point Aly. The Bible itself, which you are using as a basis for your argument, states that it is all right for the people to eat certain meats. Heck, Numbers, Dueteronomy and most of the first bit of the Old Testament are devoted to rules we should follow.

So now I think it's obvious which I choose...

Helloooo! I'm baaaaack! Mua ha ha ha...

I guess I waited too long but that doesn't really matter now, does it?
Let's get on with it:

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Your Bible verses are stupid and don't adresswhat you say they do. God gave man "dominion" over all the earth. Jesus ate meat, what are you talking about. The Rev. you refer to sounds like a real nut case and thank God his church is probably like 50 people. This is so idiotic.

I take it that this is the first time you read this thread, am I right?
Since I probably already posted the dominion section from this article on this thread, I'm just going to post the link again so you can find it yourself: http://www.fundforanimals.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=640&table=documents http://fundforanimals.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=641 http://fundforanimals.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=642
The verses that say things like "Jesus sat at meat" or whatever don't really imply that Jesus did eat meat. In greek, the word meat is most often used to describe food in general. Read this: http://www.all-creatures.org/discuss/svtmeat.html

Making assumptions about people you barely know about isn't the best thing to do in this case:

The Reverend Professor Andrew Linzey, PhD, DD, is an Anglican priest, a theologian, a writer, and is internationally known as an authority on Christianity and animals.

He is a member of the Faculty of Theology in the University of Oxford, and holds the world’s first academic post in Ethics, Theology and Animal Welfare — the Bede Jarret Senior Research Fellowship at Blackfriars Hall, University of Oxford. From 1987 to 1992, he was Director of Studies of the Centre for the Study of Theology in the University of Essex, England, and from 1992 to 1996, he was Special Professor in Theology at the University of Nottingham, England. In 1998, he was Visiting Professor at the Koret School of Veterinary Medicine at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He is currently Honorary Professor at the University of Birmingham, England, and Special Professor at Saint Xavier University, Chicago.

He has written more than 180 articles, and authored or edited twenty books on theology and ethics, including seminal works on animals: Animal Rights: A Christian Perspective (London: SCM Press, 1976); Christianity and the Rights of Animals (London: SPCK and New York: Crossroad, 1987 and 1989); (edited with Tom Regan), Animals and Christianity: A Book of Readings (London: SPCK and New York: Crossroad, 1989 and 1990); (edited with P.A.B. Clarke) Political Theory and Animal Rights (London: Pluto Press, 1990); Animal Theology (London: SCM Press and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1994 and 1996); (co-authored with Dan Cohn-Sherbok) After Noah: Animals and the Liberation of Theology (London: Mowbray, now Continuum, 1997); (co-edited with Dorothy Yamamoto) Animals on the Agenda: Questions about Animals for Theology and Ethics (London: SCM Press and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1998 and 1999); Animal Gospel: Christian Faith as If Animals Mattered (London: Hodder and Stougton, and Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1999 and 2000), and Animal Rites: Liturgies of Animal Care (London: SCM Press and Cleveland: Ohio: The Pilgrim Press, 1999 and 2001). He is also co-editor of the Dictionary of Ethics, Theology and Society published by Routledge in 1995, and editor of The Animal World Encyclopaedia published by Kingsley Media in 2005.

He has lectured and broadcast extensively in Europe and the United States. His Animal Theology has been translated into Italian, Spanish and Japanese. In 1990, he was awarded the Peaceable Kingdom Medal for outstanding work in the field of theology and animals. In June 2001, he was awarded a DD (Doctor of Divinity) degree by the Archbishop of Canterbury in recognition of his “unique and massive pioneering work in the area of the theology of creation with particular reference to the rights and welfare of God’s sentient creatures”. This is the highest award that the Archbishop can bestow on a theologian and the first time it has been awarded for work in animal rights.

(from http://www.godandanimals.com/PAGES/edits/linzey.html where you can find a list of some of his writings)

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OK. That is a REAL tolerant thing to say.

I think this is one of the few times I've agreed with you.

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Aly88 I'm catholic and I eat meat read genesis girl God gave man dominon over his creation and you must remember none of the 12 apsotles or Jesus were vegan they all ate fish and some form of read meat (not pork)

I don't think that Aly88 is even reading this anymore.

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So some of you guys seem to be saying that whatever god says, we must fullfill. So answer me this:

IN the bible it says that women should fear god. Now is this sexist or just plain dumb?

A good question that nobody seems to be willing to answer...

So some of you guys seem to be saying that whatever god says, we must fullfill. So answer me this:

IN the bible it says that women should fear god. Now is this sexist or just plain dumb?

Ampmaster has a point. Although being vegatarian may be a helthy lifestyle, and the Old Testament encourages it, that doesn't mean you have to be vegatarian to be a Christian, for eating meat is allowed.

Aly88 I'm catholic and I eat meat read genesis girl God gave man dominon over his creation and you must remember none of the 12 apsotles or Jesus were vegan they all ate fish and some form of read meat (not pork)

OK. That is a REAL tolerant thing to say.

I think that all X-tian bible verses are B.S.
Why the big deal? To each his own I guess...

Your Bible verses are stupid and don't adresswhat you say they do. God gave man "dominion" over all the earth. Jesus ate meat, what are you talking about. The Rev. you refer to sounds like a real nut case and thank God his church is probably like 50 people. This is so idiotic.

i under stand your point in saying that animals shouldn't b kill and thats it god's creation... but god made then for humans to eat... u no? i mean it's a food chain thats they way it was all put out to b!
i think

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I found an awesome list of stuff made from cow parts...

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Most people eat meat, of course there's going to be multiple items with animal parts in them.

Blank, who's 'we?' keep in mind if you're talking about the U.S as a whole, no, we're selfish greedy pigs and i'm appalled you think we use things conservitevly. spelling, i know it's wrong. i love america, and i wouldn't live anywhere else, but come on. i apologize if you're not aiming 'we' towards our country.

At least we use all of the animal.

Like the Indians who not only used cattle for meat but also shelter and clothing, we're not letting any of it go to waste.

I am to assume the point of posting that list was to make veganism seem impossible, right EarthGoddess?
Well, some of the products on the list can be substituted with products that do not contain those ingredients (www.veganstore.com sells a lot of those kind of products), and veganism isn't about purity, it's about doing as much as you can to avoid supporting animal cruelty. http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/beingvegan.html#purity http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/path.html#veganexample http://www.veganoutreach.org/enewsletter/hypocrites.html

Even a human rights activist can't possibly prevent/stop all human suffering, so should he/she just give up? No, of course not.
This isn't that much different from that.

I found an awesome list of stuff made from cow parts...

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Glycerin Mist - (derived from tallows)

Aftershave
Shaving cream
Toothpaste
Sunscreens
Dental Floss
Bath salts
Bubble baths
Body lotions
Cleansing creams
Moisturizing creams
External analgesics
Shampoos
Hair Dyes
Hair mousse
Hairspray
Topical anitbiotic preparations
Hemorroid preparations
Veterinary pharmeceuticals
Car polish


Cow Blood is used in:

Cell Cultures used in laboratories
Low-molecular-weight nutrients
ormones
Plywood adhesives
Fertilizer
Foam fire extinguishers
Chemical fixers for dyes

Cow Organs & Glands are used in:

Heparin - blood thinner (lungs, nasal mucus)
Pet food (lungs, organs, by-products)
Pericardium heart patches (heart)
Spinal cord/brain surgery patches (heart)
Chondroitin - arthritis treatment (Trachea, Nasal septum)
Cleaning agents for dyes and paints (Gall)
Glycosamine - cartilage/ joint treatment (Intestines, uterus)
Sutures (intestines)
Catalase - contact lens care products (liver)
Insulin (pancreas)
Hyaluronidase - cartilage/ joint treatment (testicles)
Pharmaceuticals, neural lipids and cholesterol (Spine)
Bilirubin - used to measure liver functions (bile)
Ceramics (bone)
Cleaning and polishing compounds (bone)
Bone and dental implants (bone)

Cow Fatty Acids - (derived from tallows)

Plastics
Tires
Candles
Pet food and treats
Crayons
Cosmetics
Lubricants
Soaps
Fabric softeners
Asphalt emulsifiers
Synthetic rubber
Linoleum (metallic stearate)
PVC (calcium stearate)
Jet Engine lubricants
Pesticides and herbicides
Wetting agents
Defoamers
Viscosity modifiers
Synthetic motor oil (Oleic acid)
Gel cultures that produce antibiotics (Oleic acid)
Hi-performance coatings for cars and planes (Azelaic acid)
Acne medicine (Azelaic acid)
Cosmetic gels and shampoos (stearic acid)
Pharaceutical additives (stearic acid)
waterproofing agents (stearic acid)
Lubricants (amides and amines)
Detergents (Sodium alkyl sulfates from fatty alcohols)


Collagen - (from connective tissues & skins)

Hemostats
Vascular sealants
Tissue sealants
Orthopedic implant coatings
Corneal shields
Plastic surgery injections
Meat casings
Food additives
Dental implants
Antiadhesion barriers
Bone graft substitutes

Gelatin - (derived from collagen)

Powdered gelatin
Jellies, jellied candies
Jelly beans and gums
Marshmallows
Nougats
Fruit chews
Caramels
Mousses
Pie crusts
Margarines
Yogurts
Ice Creams and sorbets
Wines (fining agent)
Gel reinforments for cooked meats
Ham gel covering
Dietary products (as thickener)
Beauty masks and creams
Shampoo bases
Medicinal/Vitamin capsules
Blood serum
Food binders, thickeners
Glues
Binders to improve 'crispness' of papers
Photographic gelatins

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Enjoy

Bella, it's only been around for a couple months.

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Yes vegetarian is effective... and it's also the easy way out, not one I am fond of... results come with hard work... would you feel better about yourself if you were a scrawny pole... or if you lifted weights, ran etc... and actually felt good, full of energy and strength?

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Each person has their own image of what looks good. I would never want to be muscle-y, I'd rather be scrawny. You can't judge what the entire population thinks based on your personal preferance of what looks better.

And are you implying that vegetarianism is the easy way out? It takes alot of self-discipline.

This thread has lingered far to long.

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This is why i lose respect for many die-hard christians.

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I don't know if Aly88 is a christian, but I know I'm not. I'm just promoting vegetarianism/veganism here...

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OK heres a funny thing you may not know, reality TV isnt really reality, they make stuff up to have a plot

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Hahaha, well duh

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Have you ever seen a vegan eat meat willingly? They are vegans for one reason onl, it sickens them to eat meat... because usully what is "unnatural" or animal cruelty reasons... when they eat it, the first thing they do is throw it up... every time.

The fact that this person did it willingly throws me off...

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Believe me, she was definitely an ethical vegan. The Louisiana family she stayed with had hundreds of dried alligator heads that they sold and she was flipping out when she saw them all (she said something like "It's the holocaust of the alligators!")
She (or the producers) dragged the whole thing of putting the piece of alligator meat in her mouth way out. I think she was crying and the whole bit. "Well, this is the first time I've eaten an animal in...oh no, it sounded awful when I put it like that..." I think it was around 5 or so minutes before she put the alligator meat in her mouth. But then she said that it tasted good. When she got back and told the rest of her family about it, they were shocked and appalled. The crazy thing was that the non-vegan mom who stayed with the vegans was going to cook a cajun gumbo with alligator but she decided to respect the family's beliefs and cook it vegan. And then the vegan mom goes and does something like that!

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and your carnivore omnivore and herbavore arguments have been deftly countered already

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That's why I tried to divert the conversation to something else because arguing over that was pointless.

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And cholesterol is easily reduced by excersizing, whats your point... I consider myself a carnivore, I wont eat anything green, and my cholesterol is at 150, which is perfetly normal

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My mom eats hardly any meat and her cholesterol level's at around 120! (she does get a good amount of exercise though)

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I was trying to use the logic of Slewinca, apparently it's no good... ( the whole, "I have a friend and..." argument)

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That kind of destroys your "veganism is bad because my friend nearly died..." argument, doesn't it? Just because your friend got sick doesn't mean everyone is going to if they go vegan and eat meat by accident.

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Yes vegetarian is effective... and it's also the easy way out, not one I am fond of... results come with hard work... would you feel better about yourself if you were a scrawny pole... or if you lifted weights, ran etc... and actually felt good, full of energy and strength?

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I'm not sure if this would be related but olympic track champion Carl Lewis is vegan. In fact, he's said "My best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet."
And 6-time Ironman Triathalon winner Dave Scott is vegetarian.

Unrealted to that, here are some more websites I've found on the main topic here:
http://www.thenazareneway.com/index_vegetarian.htm
http://www.compassionatespirit.com/was_jesus_a_vegetarian.htm
http://www.soystache.com/jesus.htm

Oh, and yogore, here are some more quotes to stick in your pipe and smoke (metaphorically):

"If you grew as fast as a chicken, you would weigh 349 pounds at age 2."
- University of Arkansas Division of Agriculture report

"This [the movie Babe] is the way Americans want to think of pigs. Real-life 'Babes' see no sun in their limited lives, with no hay to lie on, no mud to roll in. The sows live in tiny cages, so narrow they can't even turn around. They live over metal grates, and their waste is pushed through slats beneath them and flushed into huge pits."
- Morley Safer, "Pork Power" 60 Minutes, 9/19/97

"It takes 25 minutes to turn a live steer into steak at the modern slaughterhouse where Ramon Moreno works....

The cattle were supposed to be dead before they got to Moreno. But all to often they weren't.

'They blink. They make noises,' he said softly. 'The head moves, the eyes are wide and looking around.'

Still Moreno would cut. On bad days, he says, dozens of animals reached his station clearly alive and conscious. Some would survive as far as the tail cutter, the belly ripper, the hide puller.

'They die,' said Moreno, 'piece by piece.'"

- "Modern Meat: A Brutal Harvest" The Washington Post, 4/10/2001

"Hogs, unlike cattle, are dunked in tanks of hot water after they are stunned to soften the hides for skinning. As a result, a botched slaughter condemns some hogs to being scalded and drowned. Secret videotape from an Iowa pork plant shows hogs squealing and kicking as they are being lowered into the water."

- "Modern Meat: A Brutal Harvest" The Washington Post, 4/10/2001

"They go through the skinning process alive. I saw that myself, a bunch of times."
- Texas USDA inspector, referring to cattle.

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Originally posted by yogore:
I was saying, vegetarian diets are used for people regulating weight/cholesterol. Just because you don't have a problem with cholesterol, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Cholesteral can be reduced by exercising but also by not eating meat. I'm not saying if you have a cholesterol problem the only option is to cut out eat, but it is an effective option.

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I was trying to use the logic of Slewinca, apparently it's no good... ( the whole, "I have a friend and..." argument)

Yes vegetarian is effective... and it's also the easy way out, not one I am fond of... results come with hard work... would you feel better about yourself if you were a scrawny pole... or if you lifted weights, ran etc... and actually felt good, full of energy and strength?

I was saying, vegetarian diets are used for people regulating weight/cholesterol. Just because you don't have a problem with cholesterol, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Cholesteral can be reduced by exercising but also by not eating meat. I'm not saying if you have a cholesterol problem the only option is to cut out eat, but it is an effective option.