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Picture of yogore
Registered: February 02, 2004
Posts: 9212
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Not unhealthy in normal amounts, but cholestral (sp) is easily cut out by cutting out meat.


"You learn about equality in the classroom but you find out about it in life" - Campus Confidential www.myspace.com/yogore
Picture of Hydrok
Registered: August 14, 2004
Posts: 3132
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quote:
Originally posted by yogore:
quote:
They are vegans for one reason onl, it sickens them to eat meat... because usully what is "unnatural" or animal cruelty reasons...

Not true. Some people do it for health. They may want meat, but don't eat it because they are trying to be healthy, not because it sickens them to eat it.


There is nothing unhealthy about meat... unless it's meat byproducts


"So others may die" - USAF Intel Targeteer Motto (607th AIS)
Picture of yogore
Registered: February 02, 2004
Posts: 9212
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quote:
They are vegans for one reason onl, it sickens them to eat meat... because usully what is "unnatural" or animal cruelty reasons...

Not true. Some people do it for health. They may want meat, but don't eat it because they are trying to be healthy, not because it sickens them to eat it.


"You learn about equality in the classroom but you find out about it in life" - Campus Confidential www.myspace.com/yogore
Picture of Hydrok
Registered: August 14, 2004
Posts: 3132
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quote:
Originally posted by Slewinca:
Say, Hydrok, did you happen to watch trading spouses on fox tonight? A vegan mom from California and a non-vegan from Louisiana swiched places. The vegan one (who's been vegan for 8 years) ate a piece of deep-fried alligator meat (just to be open-minded or something like that) and she didn't die, get horribly ill or have to go to the hospital (as far as I know). How do you explain this? I would think a piece of alligator meat would be worse than a bite of a hamburger.

On another thing, if the only good protein comes from meat, then why aren't all the herbivorious animals extinct? They must be getting a source of protein somewhere...Oh that's right, from plants!


OK heres a funny thing you may not know, reality TV isnt really reality, they make stuff up to have a plot Smile

Animal protien... the kind that is in steak... has a different type of amino acid than plant protien, such as beans have... ANYWAY

Have you ever seen a vegan eat meat willingly? They are vegans for one reason onl, it sickens them to eat meat... because usully what is "unnatural" or animal cruelty reasons... when they eat it, the first thing they do is throw it up... every time.

The fact that this person did it willingly throws me off...

and your carnivore omnivore and herbavore arguments have been deftly countered already


"So others may die" - USAF Intel Targeteer Motto (607th AIS)
Picture of Slewinca
Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote:
Have you read Fast-Food Nation, Slewica, it is a really good read on the subject. We are doing it in AP history. The Jungle is a little out of date, but also...horrific.

I have read Fast Food Nation, it is really good not just on this subject but on others that involve the fast food industry. I haven't read The Jungle, but I have started reading Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz and I think it's kind of like an up-to-date version of The Jungle from what I've heard about that book. Maybe you should check that one out. Also, if you want to see where animal rights activists like myself are coming from, read Animal Liberation by Peter Singer, it has the facts and the philosophy behind animal rights.
quote:
Do you have an unbiased source for animal cruelty?

Cruelty is inherent to raising animals for food on a mass scale. From separating mothers and their young way before their natural weaning time (this is required for milk production, since the cow has to be impregnated and give birth in order to give milk and the resulting calf has to be taken away as soon as possible [sometimes immediately, others after a day or two] so more cow's milk gets to humans), branding (in the case of cattle, and painkillers are not used in the process), transportation to the slaughterhouse (there are no laws that prevent animals on trucks from being denied food and water for hours on end, and some animals die before they get to their final destination, in fact the USDA estimates that about %10 of animals die before reaching the slaughterhouse) and then slaughter itself (with line speeds that way they are, it's hard for workers to be exact and accurate with every single animal and that can lead to improper stunning, regaining of consciousness during the slaughter process and in the case with pigs and chickens, sometimes being boiled alive). Death rates on farms vary, from %4 in cows and calves, %12 for turkeys, $14 for hogs, and %28 for some kinds of chickens.
The Animal Welfare Act does not cover animals raised for food, and the Humane Slaughter Act does not cover poultry, which compromise about %90 percent of the animals slaughtered for food in the U.S.

Industry publications, although biased in favor of meat industries, can give indications of how animals are raised and the general opinion the industry has about animals.
Here are some examples:

“The breeding sow should be thought of, and treated as, a valuable piece of machinery whose function is to pump out baby pigs like a sausage machine.”
— L. J. Taylor, export development manager for the Wall’s Meat Company, Ltd., National Hog Farmer, 1978

“In a contemporary agricultural context, the role and value of animals are defined in terms of their economic efficiency and productivity (and the prices for their products). In this valuational context, animal welfare (and its study) is restricted to what has an effect on production and price.”
— Bernard E. Rollin, Professor of Physiology, Philosophy and Biophysics at Colorado State University, in his book, Farm Animal Welfare: Social, Bioethical, and Research Issues

“It’s a damn shame when they kill each other. It means we wasted all the feed that went into the damn thing.”
— Herbert Reed, poultry producer, referring to chickens pecking each other to death in battery cages.

“Forget the pig is an animal. Treat him just like a machine in a factory. Schedule treatments like you would lubrication. Breeding season like the first step in an assembly line. And marketing like the delivery of finished goods.”
— J. Byrnes, “Raising Pigs by the Calendar at Maplewood Farm,” Hog Farm Management, 1976

“It doesn’t bother me. We’re no different from any other business. These animal rights people like to accuse us of mistreating our stock, but we believe we can be most efficient by not being emotional. We are a business, not a humane society, and our job is to sell merchandise at a profit. It’s no different from selling paper-clips or refrigerators.”
— Henry Pace, owner of a livestock auction yard

“Death losses during transport are too high—amounting to more than $8 million per year. But it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to figure out why we load as many hogs on a truck as we do. It’s cheaper.”
— Hog industry expert in Lancaster Farming, 1990

When an egg factory was charged with cruelty to animals for discarding live chickens in a trash can, its lawyer argued that the hens could legally be discarded like manure. This prompted the Judge to ask, “Isn’t there a big distinction between manure and live animals?” to which the egg factory’s lawyer responded, “No, Your Honor.”
— From trial transcript of State of New Jersey v. ISE America, Central Warren Municipal Court

“Sheep farming, like most agriculture, has become agribusiness and not just a way of life. We must be concerned with the amount and quality of the salable product produced from our basic production units. In sheep farming, the basic production units are the ewes. . . . We don’t need large beautiful fat happy ewes that only produce one lamb a year. We need ewes that will provide us an adequate gross income to cover all our costs and then some.”
— D. E. Hogue, Animal Scientist

“The modern layer is, after all, only a very efficient converting machine, changing the raw material—feedstuffs—into the finished product—the egg—less, of course, maintenance requirements.”
— Farmer and Stockbreeder, 1962

“At higher egg prices, crowding always resulted in greater profits.”
— Robert Brown, “Toe-Clipping May Help Hens Improve Returns in Crowded Cages,” Feedstuffs, 1985

“The slatted floor of the hog factory farm seems to have more merit than disadvantage. The animal will usually be slaughtered before serious deformity sets in.”
— Editors of Farmer and Stockbreeder, 1961

“We don’t get paid for producing animals with good posture around here. We get paid by the pound!”
— Hog farmer J. Messersmith commenting on crippling leg deformities commonly suffered by pigs on factory farms.

“The object of producing eggs is to make money. When we forget this objective, we have forgotten what it is all about.”
— Fred C. Haley, president of a Georgia poultry firm, quoted in Poultry Tribune, 1974

“Farmers treat their animals well because that’s just good business. The key to sow welfare isn’t whether they are kept in individual crates or group housing, but whether the system used is well managed. . . . Science tells us that she [a sow] doesn’t even seem to know that she can’t turn. . . . She wants to eat and feel safe, and she can do that very well in individual stalls.”
— Paul Sundberg, veterinarian and National Pork Producers Council vice president.

"According to experts, broilers [chickens raised for meat] now grow so rapidly that the heart and lungs are not developed well enough to support the remainder of the body, resulting in congestive heart failure and tremendous death losses."
- David Martin, Feedstuffs, 5/26/97

"Crowding Pigs Pays"
- National Hog Farmer headline

"If a seven-pound [human] baby grew at the same rate that today's turkey grows, when the baby reaches 18 weeks of age, it would weigh 1500 pounds."
- Lancaster Farming

"...turkeys have been bred to grow faster and heavier but their skeletons haven't kept pace, which causes 'cowboy legs'. Commonly, the turkeys hae problems standing...and fall and are trampled on of seek refuge unter the feeders, leading to bruises...or killed birds"
- Feedstuffs

"Approximately half of the calf slaughterer in the U.S. shackle calves while they are still alive"
- From a study of calf slaughter handling and processing in Meat & Poultry.

"Company trucks would enter layer operations, pick up the [dead] birds, and grind them up, on site, in a portable grinder...it [the ground-up hens] would go to Jet-Pro's new extruder-texturizer, the 'Pellet Pro'."
- Feedstuffs, describing one method of disposing of "spent" egg laying hens (meaning that they no longer produce as many eggs).

"Good handling is extremely difficult if equipment is 'maxed out' all the time. It is impossible to have a good attitude toward cattle if employees have to constantly overexert themselves, and thus transfer all that stress right down the line to the animals, just to keep up with the line."
- A Meat & Poultry article.

"Any sow that is not gestating, lactating of within seven days post-weaning is non-active."
- Successful Farming (when a sow is considered non-active, she sent to slaughter)

"...straw is very expensive and there certainly would not be a supply of straw in the country to supply all the farrowing pens in the U.S."
- A National Pork Producers Council member explaining why pregnant sows are not given straw bedding in their pens.

"Tail docking has become common practice to prevent tail biting of pigs in confinement. It shoudl be done by all producers of feeder pigs. Cut tails 1/4 to 1/2 inch from the body with side cutting pliers or another blunt instrument. The crushing action helps to stop bleeding. Some producers use a chicken debeaker for docking; this also cauterizes the cut surface."
- The USDA. Young piglets are often the victims of taildocking.

That's all for now, short on time.


"Who can protest an injustice but does not is an accomplice to the act." The Talmud <br> Stop KFC's Kentucky Fried Cruelty www.kfccruelty.com http://www.myspace.com/slewinca
Picture of pixie922
Registered: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21
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i'm a christian and I eat meat. I think that God loves everybody including animals, but animals were meant to be eaten. It's part of the circle of life, and god also shed the lamb not the celary stick.


be YOU, because you can't become someone else
Picture of bella123
Registered: July 26, 2004
Posts: 2891
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This is why i lose respect for many die-hard christians.


Evitere Les Contrefacons.
Picture of CelticNewAger
Registered: December 11, 2003
Posts: 9501
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Man do I hate this thread....


"Regardless, I have always, and will always, succeed."
Picture of thedraconic1
Registered: July 29, 2003
Posts: 176
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quote:
as the story of Balaam's donkey in the book of Numbers (it's near the end) clearly illustrates, God does not approve of the unneccesary abuse of animals.
The archangel wasn't standing there because he was beating the donkey he was riding, he was beating the donkey he was riding because the archangel was standing there and not letting the donkey move past (he didn't know about the angel).

Those who are vegetarian need proper balances of protein and calcium. These aren't easily found in most vegetables.

Herbivores tend to eat a lot of food.

quote:
There follow many years of fallen humanity, when people held slaves, waged war, ate animals and committed various other violent acts.
People ate animals after the flood, when God proclaimed that Noah and his decendants could do so.

quote:
spares animals unimaginable suffering and violence.
You are assuming, of course, that if everyone who reads this [whatever size of group of people we have here] become vegetarians, the factories are just going to close up shop.

quote:
Remember: As we do to the least, so we do to Him.
CONTEXT! This does not refer to animals.

Your religious arguments very much appear to be bending facts to help your argument.


Scottie was here!
Picture of yogore
Registered: February 02, 2004
Posts: 9212
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quote:
If that's the case, then why aren't all the vegetarians and vegans in the world dead or on life support?

It's not about needing both to live, but to be healthy, you need nutrients from both. But, with foods like tofu, meat is less crucial.
quote:
But this is really beside the point, and the point I would like to make is: If you do not like the way animals are raised for food in this country, do not support the farms that are raising the animals cruelly.
Boycott meat
Do you have an unbiased source for animal cruelty?


"You learn about equality in the classroom but you find out about it in life" - Campus Confidential www.myspace.com/yogore
Picture of northstar316
Registered: October 06, 2004
Posts: 3372
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Have you read Fast-Food Nation, Slewica, it is a really good read on the subject. We are doing it in AP history. The Jungle is a little out of date, but also...horrific.


O of where dost thou hail, Celephanil, Celephanil? Why dost thou wander in Tengelwar great, why on the sea do you sail?
Picture of Slewinca
Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote:
Originally posted by northstar316:
But bears are omniviaors, (sorry for spelling,) as are we, and we need a healthy balance of both to survive.

If that's the case, then why aren't all the vegetarians and vegans in the world dead or on life support?
Bears eat what they have to to survive because they can't go to a grocery store and get what they want without fighting for it. Same goes for carnivores. Our ancestors ate animals so they could survive in the winter/ice age when there were no plants or fruits to eat, but that doesn't mean we should do that now.

But this is really beside the point, and the point I would like to make is: If you do not like the way animals are raised for food in this country, do not support the farms that are raising the animals cruelly.
Boycott meat.
The the only way we'll get the agribusinesses attention is if mass amounts of people say no to the current methods of raising animals and stop giving them money to raise and kill more animals. The consumer has a lot of power. Boycotts have worked in the past because a large amount of people took part in them. If we want things to change, we have to change.

Just think about that for a moment.


"Who can protest an injustice but does not is an accomplice to the act." The Talmud <br> Stop KFC's Kentucky Fried Cruelty www.kfccruelty.com http://www.myspace.com/slewinca
Picture of northstar316
Registered: October 06, 2004
Posts: 3372
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quote:
Originally posted by Slewinca:
quote:
Simple. They have different digestive systems than carnivores.

Sure, but our digestive systems are different from carnivores and herbivores, we have the ability to choose between meat and plants, carnivores usually don't. (the exception here being bears)


But bears are omniviaors, (sorry for spelling,) as are we, and we need a healthy balance of both to survive.


O of where dost thou hail, Celephanil, Celephanil? Why dost thou wander in Tengelwar great, why on the sea do you sail?
Picture of Slewinca
Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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quote:
Simple. They have different digestive systems than carnivores.

Sure, but our digestive systems are different from carnivores and herbivores, we have the ability to choose between meat and plants, carnivores usually don't. (the exception here being bears)


"Who can protest an injustice but does not is an accomplice to the act." The Talmud <br> Stop KFC's Kentucky Fried Cruelty www.kfccruelty.com http://www.myspace.com/slewinca
Picture of yogore
Registered: February 02, 2004
Posts: 9212
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quote:
then why aren't all the herbivorious animals extinct?

Simple. They have different digestive systems than carnivores.


"You learn about equality in the classroom but you find out about it in life" - Campus Confidential www.myspace.com/yogore
Picture of Slewinca
Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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Say, Hydrok, did you happen to watch trading spouses on fox tonight? A vegan mom from California and a non-vegan from Louisiana swiched places. The vegan one (who's been vegan for 8 years) ate a piece of deep-fried alligator meat (just to be open-minded or something like that) and she didn't die, get horribly ill or have to go to the hospital (as far as I know). How do you explain this? I would think a piece of alligator meat would be worse than a bite of a hamburger.

On another thing, if the only good protein comes from meat, then why aren't all the herbivorious animals extinct? They must be getting a source of protein somewhere...Oh that's right, from plants!


"Who can protest an injustice but does not is an accomplice to the act." The Talmud <br> Stop KFC's Kentucky Fried Cruelty www.kfccruelty.com http://www.myspace.com/slewinca
Picture of Slewinca
Registered: December 14, 2003
Posts: 381
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*sigh* I knew that was going to sound stupid... *steps off pedestal*
I'm not saying you're absolutely right on this, but you're right that I really need to keep the preaching at a minimum.
quote:
Being a vegan is bad... Because, when your body gets used to ingesting vegetables and fruits and all that good stuff it is lacking the protien found in meat... protien that is made with amino acids.

I know I'm going to get a ton of cr*p for posting this link but I do not have the time to hunt for a ton of info.
Veganism and the Issue of Protein
This one's a little less "biased":
Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets
quote:
If you were a vegan for some time and had accidently had a piece of meat no matter how small you could die... this happened to a friend of mine, she went for 4 years without eating meat and instead of eating a soy burger, she took a big old bite out of a hamburger... and nearly died.

I'm sorry about what happened to your friend but I have never heard of this happening before. It wasn't food poisoning, was it? I am on a message board with many vegans and some eat meat by mistake and I have never heard any of them say that they got horribly ill.
quote:
Also vegetables carry these little amoebas that vegetarians are prone to, because they eat som many raw vegetables, these amoebas multiply and cause some nasty gastrointestinal disorders...

Huh, I've never heard of that either, but I don't really eat a ton of raw vegetables anyway so I don't think I have anything to worry about.
I would think that people who follow a raw food (meaning that they don't eat anything that's been cooked, and no they do not eat raw meat [that's what I thought when I first heard of the diet].) diet would be more prone to this than others.


"Who can protest an injustice but does not is an accomplice to the act." The Talmud <br> Stop KFC's Kentucky Fried Cruelty www.kfccruelty.com http://www.myspace.com/slewinca
Picture of northstar316
Registered: October 06, 2004
Posts: 3372
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People really need to get off their pedestal and look at what science has done to the lives of the poor. Do you know why the developed nations of the world never have famines? PESTICIDES, GENETICALLY ALTERED CROPS, AND FERTILIZER! Half of this nation would starve if we didn't have all these amazing advances in food production.


O of where dost thou hail, Celephanil, Celephanil? Why dost thou wander in Tengelwar great, why on the sea do you sail?
Picture of Hydrok
Registered: August 14, 2004
Posts: 3132
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Being a vegan is bad... Because, when your body gets used to ingesting vegetables and fruits and all that good stuff it is lacking the protien found in meat... protien that is made with amino acids. If you were a vegan for some time and had accidently had a piece of meat no matter how small you could die... this happened to a friend of mine, she went for 4 years without eating meat and instead of eating a soy burger, she took a big old bite out of a hamburger... and nearly died.

Also vegetables carry these little amoebas that vegetarians are prone to, because they eat som many raw vegetables, these amoebas multiply and cause some nasty gastrointestinal disorders...

Thats all for now.


"So others may die" - USAF Intel Targeteer