quote:

Originally posted by notsojoey:
I've said this many times, until animals draft a bill of rights that is recognized by the United States Government animals will not have rights.

True.

Why is no one debating? This is no fun!!! It makes me sad!!! please debate!!!

Sorry, this is from a while back, but I'm not going to take the time to read EarthGoddess and anneke yelling at each other for who knows why... I don't think the like each other too much. ANYWAYS...

quote:

whats the next topic? animals have dreams too? gimme a break

I know EarthGoddess already covered this some-what, and I agree with her. If you mean the type of dream you get when you sleep, ofcoarse they do! My dog sleeps in my bed with me at night, and often she has dreams. She starts twitching and then, because she is a rather large Weimaraner, shakes the whole bed. She also makes noises, wimpers, whines, etc., it's sad.
But if you mean like ambisous dream, plans for the future, then no. They are animals, many don't have a very long lifespan ,and I don't think the were planned to have that kind of dream because we were made the domminate life form, and which government officail will listen to an animal?

its ok..ur just human that errs just like the rest of us

quote:

Originally posted by anneke:
lol...pigeon english? yeah and i sh!t all over u too..

Pidgin, Pigeon. Same thing.

lol...pigeon english? yeah and i sh!t all over u too..

quote:

Originally posted by anneke:
that just reflects more on your lack of capability if you cant understand a 3 year old

You're right, I can't understand a three year old. I can only understand perfect English, not pigeon English.

that just reflects more on your lack of capability if you cant understand a 3 year old

"i can keep on dancin' all night, suga"

quote:

Also, I'm not responding to the rest of what you said because it looks like a three year old banged on a keyboard and hit the post button. You want me to take you seriously? Type better so I can actually comprehend what you're trying to say.

oh stop it! now you're just being too kind

quote:

Originally posted by anneke:


i dont need to watch tv to get my information, as I have had to study the topic/s

I get my info from TV, textbooks, websites, magazines, documentaries, etc. Anywhere that information can be presented is where I get it from. I don't know why you're knocking television as a source anyway. I can understand being suspicious of a reality show like Wife Swap, but NOVA? You must not have ever seen that show. The scientists and philosophers that write the stuff you study are interviewed and give their opinions on various subjects on that show, such as Evolution or String Theory (My favorite). Written word is not anymore valid than spoken word. I like listening to Anthropologists talk about Anthropology. Sue me.

Also, I'm not responding to the rest of what you said because it looks like a three year old banged on a keyboard and hit the post button. You want me to take you seriously? Type better so I can actually comprehend what you're trying to say.

This must be because of your own self obsessed ass..but the whole "do animals feel emotion" thing was in response to someone claiming that they dont have responses, not to you..there are other ppl who write posts (altho, i'd must admit, ur posts I quite enjoy )


Plain and simple, you gave examples of "human" emotions as representing those that are only experienced by humans, and I gave examples otherwise. now you call them "traits" not emotions..blah blah blah..what is it going to be next time?

humans have also been known to show less, if no empathy, yet they still have rights which is what this blog should be about.

i dont need to watch tv to get my information, as I have had to study the topic/s

I've said this many times, until animals draft a bill of rights that is recognized by the United States Government animals will not have rights.

quote:

Originally posted by alfred:
so there are now human emotions, dog emotion, cat emotions, glodfish emotions, earthworm emotions

either animals have emotions or they do not! so which is it?

The science of emotion is a little more complex than that.

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Earthgoddess u know all this stuff in 20 yrs? how old r u? 20? man..u must've been researching this shit when u were still on ur momma titty

Since I was a baby my parents let me watch The Discovery Channel, back when they cared more about education than ratings. All I facts I present are from as many sources as I can remember.

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i like that whole idea of go and do ur own research thing sounds like ur just backing out of proving ideas
2 say ur to be proven wrong means nuthin cos u havent really doco'ed nething to prove urself right too. at least this guy is putting proof out there for everyone to read

Like I said for the millionth time. I have put proof out there for everyone to see, on this site, but I do not want to spend hours looking for it again. If you wish to see it, you're completely free to search all 3,630 of my posts.

quote:

whats the next topic? animals have dreams too? gimme a break

If by dreams you mean the images projected by the brain during REM sleep, then yes. If by dreams you mean aspirations and goals, then who knows.

so there are now human emotions, dog emotion, cat emotions, glodfish emotions, earthworm emotions

either animals have emotions or they do not! so which is it?

Earthgoddess u know all this stuff in 20 yrs? how old r u? 20? man..u must've been researching this shit when u were still on ur momma titty

i like that whole idea of go and do ur own research thing sounds like ur just backing out of proving ideas
2 say ur to be proven wrong means nuthin cos u havent really doco'ed nething to prove urself right too. at least this guy is putting proof out there for everyone to read

and anneke whats with all this scientific reference stuff..gee lets just get down to it that animals are for our use.simple

whats the next topic? animals have dreams too? gimme a break

quote:

Originally posted by anneke:
"I am also, too, waiting for examples of “human” emotions. You need more than just argue that we have “human” this because we have a human brain…please cite examples."

Let me clarify that I acknowledge your examples, but where is the examples of evidence that these emotions are restricted just to the human species, and that animals dont have these emotions, or even their own versions of these type of emotions? (And please dont refer to a generalisation on adaptation etc, where is the documented studies to back your claim?)

They do have their own versions of the emotions we have. I did not, nor would I ever deny that. I'm saying that they do not have human emotions. Because they aren't human. I don't know how to make that any simpler for you guys. A cat does not have dog emotions, because it's not a dog and vice versa. I'm going by the dozens of documentaries, NOVA specials, books I've read, and websites that I have researched throughout my 20 years of life. I'd like to find them all for you, but I don't have the time to try to search through a memory bank spanning 20 years. Either take my word for it, or do your own research to prove me wrong.

I am speaking in the most basic level of science that can possibly be conceived, in order to make myself undeniably clear. Cat brain does not equal Human brain. Therefore, chemical processes in both brains is different.

quote:

jealousy: Chimpanzees used in various behavioural studies at Cambridge University have been shown to become aggressive at others that have been rewarded for a particular action, whereas they weren't. Chimpanzees were shown to form groups and "attack" the individual that received the reward and extra attention. Sounds like schoolyard behaviour shown by children jealous of a peer.

There is absolutely no doubt that Chimpanzees share most of our traits. As they are our closest relatives. I've seen that show "Why Chimps Cry and Dogs Smile". I saw how a Chimp empathized with a woman whose baby had died. Animals with less advanced brains can not feel empathy.

And I agree to animals feeling emotions similar to the others I cited, however what they feel is not as complex as what we feel. Human emotions are stupid and useless. This is why I love (carnivorous) animals, despite living at the mercy of man and being on the edge of extinction, they manage to pull through their dilemma, not by crying about it, but by doing the most basic and effective function nature could have ever given them; Fighting. It's that tenacity that we humans can only dream of possessing that I respect.

Not having complex emotion is a sign strength my eyes. Not a sign of weakness.

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Humans having complex emotions compared to animals….Is this scientific fact or speciest assertion? Please cite or refer to some scientific research that exemplifies this, because so far no one has done this besides alnswed.

Scientific fact presented by NOVA. Great science show, watch it. The human brain has three layers. Reptilian, Mammalian and some extra crap that makes us "human". However, I think I read somewhere that the great apes also have some of that extra crap. The reason no one else has done any citation, is because we're all long time veterans of this site and buried deep within our thousands of posts is thousands of links for damn near everything. We're to freakin' lazy to dig that shit up again and again and again and again. I'm not going to sort through 5 years of stuff for you. Do it yourself.

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then how did we do it and they didnt?(speaking in terms of emotion),

Intelligence. Humans are seriously wimpy animals when you think about it. But it was our intelligence that saved us. Our ability to make tools to defend ourselves and to find food other animals could not is what took us to where we are now.

"I am also, too, waiting for examples of “human” emotions. You need more than just argue that we have “human” this because we have a human brain…please cite examples."

Let me clarify that I acknowledge your examples, but where is the examples of evidence that these emotions are restricted just to the human species, and that animals dont have these emotions, or even their own versions of these type of emotions? (And please dont refer to a generalisation on adaptation etc, where is the documented studies to back your claim?)


For every emotion you came up with, I can cite an example of how that emotion may be evident in another species, for example:

despair: documented cases of dairy cows showing signs of sadness, even despair when their calves are taken from them. They have even been seen as shedding tears and wailing for calves weeks after separation.
How do humans show despair? Examples include crying and lamenting.

jealousy: Chimpanzees used in various behavioural studies at Cambridge University have been shown to become aggressive at others that have been rewarded for a particular action, whereas they weren't. Chimpanzees were shown to form groups and "attack" the individual that received the reward and extra attention. Sounds like schoolyard behaviour shown by children jealous of a peer.

Doubt: Oh come on! Doubt was one of the main behaviours that were identified in animals, in particular dogs and primates used in behavioural experiments. When confronted with a situation that involved negative reinforcement, in which a shock was administered in getting a treat, the dogs did show indecision as to whether the treat was worth the discomfort.Some took the shock, others didnt showing individual differences and whether they felt it was worthwhile. How do we show doubt? By indecisions.

Remorse: animals show signs of remorse if they have offended a master, such as a dog being pulled up for an unwanted behaviour and then trying to please their master by reverting to a positive learned behaviour, such as rolling on their back. Humans do the same...if an individual feels they have upset another, besides verbally apologising, they will act in accordance of reinforcing their apology through an action..either immediate or when faced with the same situation again and trying to divert from making the same 'mistake'.The thing with remorse is that it is shown as an outward manifestation of signs..rather than an emotion per se.

i could continue...but the evidence is out there..like you said previous..just 'google' it, i guess.

btw, I know i'm going to get alot of responses to these examples, but humans do communicate their emotions verbally, but most times its a physical and notable behaviour and reactions that exemplify how we feel. Animals do the same. whether they're the same emotions per se, perhaps we'll never know...but one can not totally dismiss beyond 100% doubt that animals can show complex and emotions akin to that of their human counterparts.

Quote EarthGoddess:

“Don't confuse Disney films with the real world.”

I am unclear as how you thought s/he was confusing Disney with real life? Where do you get your inferences from?

I am also, too, waiting for examples of “human” emotions. You need more than just argue that we have “human” this because we have a human brain…please cite examples.

“Human beings have the most advanced brains in the animal kingdom. Therefore our emotions are more complex. Animals who don't have the complex emotions we have are better at adaption and survival.”

Humans having complex emotions compared to animals….Is this scientific fact or speciest assertion? Please cite or refer to some scientific research that exemplifies this, because so far no one has done this besides alnswed.

Our advanced brains stem from our evolutionary progress….which is the product of successful adaptation and survival…so for us to evolve to become the most “advanced” means we had to develop complex emotions as time progressed….. (hence, our superiority and complex “human” emotion), yet you claim that only those animals that DON’T have complex emotions are better at adaptation and survival…then how did we do it and they didnt?(speaking in terms of emotion),

“To the natural world, being unemotional is better.”

From an animal rights perspective, the vast majority of animals raised for food are not in a natural world, in fact, they are in a very unnatural world and common food animals have been genetically modified, which further exemplifies how unnatural they really are (ie genetic biodiversity or lack thereof). So for those poor critters they have a very f**ed up life since they do feel emotion to some degree…doesn’t that give them some worth besides satisfying humans?

More importantly, the human IS DRIVEN by primitive emotion (I don‘t know if that’s what certain people mean by “instinctual“ driven emotion), because that is what the mid section of our brain does, it’s the frontal lobes that govern what we do with our emotions…that tells us whether we should hit someone when angry or not, and animals, especially higher order animals, have well developed frontal lobes. They may not be as developed as humans, but developed enough to engage in STOP or GO actions, much like we do. Does that mean they should be assigned more worth apart from satisfying human needs?

I know I joined this discussion late and may have missed some interesting posts, but how does this relate to animals not having rights?

Let me get it back on track by putting this forward…the general consensus of those on here are leaning to the notion that animals do have some form of emotion, either through “animal driven” emotion or whatever…if that’s the case, shouldn’t that equate them with the basic rights? Such as freedom from pain, hunger, etc (and please don’t use the whole “that doesn’t happen in the wild bullsh!t“), because animal rights has nothing to do with how animals treat each other in their natural worlds, but how humans treat animals, and humans have removed themselves from the natural world (albeit certain individuals who choose to live with wild animals). To acknowledge that animals do have some form of emotion, or are driven by “emotional-instinctual” processes, means to acknowledge that they do feel on some degree and our treatment of how they should be treated should start changing. Without sounding arbitrary, if we are going to base assignment of rights on the ability to have and show emotion, then a comatose person, or someone who has suffered severe brain damage (in those areas that govern emotion and emotional control), would have less rights than a factory farmed pig.

quote:

Originally posted by alnswed:
Human emotions? Can you please clarify this? So I can keep up

so there are "human" emotions, yet ONLY emotional responses for animals? i love speciesm!

Human Emotion: Despair, Jealousy, Doubt, Contempt, Guilt, Hate, Remorse, Embarrassment, etc. Basically, all the useless ones that wouldn't do us any good if we had to live in the wild again.

Scientifically speaking, yes. Don't confuse Disney films with the real world.

Human beings have the most advanced brains in the animal kingdom. Therefore our emotions are more complex. Animals who don't have the complex emotions we have are better at adaption and survival. If a tiger felt regret for killing a deer for dinner, it would be a less efficient hunter. If a mother bear felt paralyzing fear, she would not protect her cubs if a male bear tried to kill them.

Complex (Useless) human emotions are a death sentence in the wild.

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How do you know thatthey are not as "complete"? That is just an assumption or personal hypothesis? Smile

Im basing my argument on medical and scientific evidence:

Emotions are dependant on biochemical changes, and if animals produce these chemicals, just as humans produce these chemicals, then the arguemt is more in favour of animals having the ability to feel emotion than not.

Animals do produce those chemicals. I'm not saying animals don't feel any emotion at all, because they do. They just don't feel HUMAN emotion, because they do not have HUMAN brains. Only creatures with HUMAN brains feel HUMAN emotion. I don't understand why you seem to think that I think having more complex emotions means "better". To the natural world, being unemotional is better.

Alnswed, would you cite that? I am curious.

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Animals cannot change their emotions or hide them. they always react to them. This proves that there is instinct involved in their emotional responses.

Well, just to say, sometimes they have to. If they are in danger because of their emotions, they have to hide them, instead of "erasing" them, or what have you. (Oh, I am so tired, and not at all literally inclined to-day) For instance, wolves (as I know most about them) have dominance issues. The Alpha leads the pack. We all know this. Often, if a lower-ranking wolf wants to become Alpha, and he won't/doesn't want to leave the pack, he will have to bide his time, holding his anger/disrespect in? Something to think about.