btw how do u know that animals cant change their emotions? thats just an assumption, just as it is an assumption that they do

it doesnt change the fact of what was raised....when it comes to assessable factors, such as biochemical responses, there is stronger support that animals do have emotions that may be more than "instinct driven"....

humans are also driven by instincts, we just like to think we are driven by a higher "consciousness" as it 'validates our worth within the animal kingdom.'

perhaps animals have complex emotions, they may not be exactly akin to ours in meaning (since we have assigned specific words to meanings), but it may still be complex nonetheless.

as a basic example: i bet if I had a hungry animal and teased it with food, it would become frustrated, perhaps angry, and its state of emotion will change once its sated..

quoting BushSupporter:

"I am stating that animals have reactionary emotions, by this I mean that they show thier emotions through behavior."


So do humans, so whats your point? Humans communicate their emotions by their verbal language AND what they do....

Don't be so naive..we're not the only ones that use both verbal and non-verbal language..animals do communicate their emotions and needs through their own language...

You seem to miss the known truth that humans do react on instinct as well when placed in certain situations...just like an animal would.

and your point is..?

quote:

Emotions are dependant on biochemical changes, and if animals produce these chemicals, just as humans produce these chemicals, then the arguemt is more in favour of animals having the ability to feel emotion than not.

No one is disputing that emotion plays a part in animal behavior. I am stating that animals have reactionary emotions, by this I mean that they show thier emotions through behavior. Humans can have emotions, they can hold them in, they can show them, they can ignore tham, and they can change them. Animals cannot change their emotions or hide them. they always react to them. This proves that there is instinct involved in their emotional responses.

btw, when i say animals don't have a sense of right or wrong, i usually mean wild ones. Pets are different. As they interact with their master, they start to understand what's going on. like, why the vacumm makes a sound "all by itself." They may not know exactly how it works, but they know that you make the noise when using it. monkey see, monkey do. the phraise doesn't exactly just refer to monkeys. and also, when you give wild animals rights, you put them at the same lvl as us, or our pets which get killed by them.

uhhhh, did i forget to mention that was a joke? i didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I'm srry, don't hurt me!!!

btw, I knew most women weren't sissies. just the blonds! (note that was a joke too) besides, I'm not sexist, I'm just a teenage boy. I'm male, live with it. besides, I have three sisters. i know about women life, i practically overhear it every day!!! although, it is foun to watch you guys jump on chairs when you see a rat/mouse on the floor! (note this is a joke too, i know women do crazy stuff. i watch my sister feed her ball python every 2 wks. she handles them some times)

Anyways, this dog knew this rabbit was inferior to it. Didn't like the thought of killing it while it was down, and brought it home. it probably wanted a new playmate! (note i have the same sense of humor as ampmaster)

quote:

Originally posted by kibukun:

quote:

Originally posted by horseartistgrl27:
EarthGoddess, I know that it wasn't uncommon for my dog to behave like that, I was just continuing to go against Bushsupporter's statemnet that animals don't have a sense of right and wrong.

note that,this dog is female. the dog probably already knew that you would get in trouble for killing it, and brought it back. This clearly shows that women really are sissies!

I doubt you'd be saying that if you had to deal with crippling cramps and migraines every month, like I am right now...

Welcome to YN, horseartistgrl27. In the future, please try to condense all of your writing to one post. To get rid of clutter, we all try to avoid posting multiple times consecutively on the same thread.

Also, please note that when your posts go up, you have a ten-minute (or so) period to edit them. You can edit your post by clicking on the image of the folder with the eraser in the upper-right-hand corner of your post. Very handy for fixing those pesky typos you notice a minute too late!

(Yes, I copy-pasted from the Animal Testing thread -- sorry, I'm tired).

Sorry that wasn't on topic. I SAY ANIMALS DESERVE RIGHTS!!!! (there)

kikbun, your being sexist. And my dog has killed animals since then (ones my dad does not like, and tick her off (raccoons)), and no women are not always sissies. Some are, I admit that. But then again, so are some guys.

quote:

Originally posted by horseartistgrl27:
EarthGoddess, I know that it wasn't uncommon for my dog to behave like that, I was just continuing to go against Bushsupporter's statemnet that animals don't have a sense of right and wrong.

note that,this dog is female. the dog probably already knew that you would get in trouble for killing it, and brought it back. This clearly shows that women really are sissies!

EarthGoddess, I know that it wasn't uncommon for my dog to behave like that, I was just continuing to go against Bushsupporter's statemnet that animals don't have a sense of right and wrong.

Human emotions? Can you please clarify this? So I can keep up

so there are "human" emotions, yet ONLY emotional responses for animals? i love speciesm!


How do you know thatthey are not as "complete"? That is just an assumption or personal hypothesis?

Im basing my argument on medical and scientific evidence:

Emotions are dependant on biochemical changes, and if animals produce these chemicals, just as humans produce these chemicals, then the arguemt is more in favour of animals having the ability to feel emotion than not.

Furthermore, arent emotions a 'type of response' to a certain situation, whether physical or psychological?

quote:

Originally posted by alnswed:


Don't you know that hormones are part of biochemical processes of the brain? And therefore, if studies have proven that these "biochemical" processes do fire, in this case, mammals, and these hormones are also responsible for human emotion, than animals demonstrate the ability to feel emotion?

When did I ever say animals don't feel emotion? I said that they do not feel human emotion. Animals are capable of thought and emotional responses, however these responses are not as complex as those felt by humans. Keep up.

quote:

Well, not all mamals. Some dogs wouldn't have the same reaction, even females. And other speices for sure wouldn't have. As you probably know, males lions kill cubs beloning to other males. So maybe some, but not all. I don't want to be the judge then of which animals might deserve rights ( I'll leave that up to God.).

What I'm saying is that what your dog did was not unusual or uncommon. I know other dogs would have reacted differently, but what she did is not rare at all.

[quote:
Do you even know what an instinct is? It is simply an unlearned behavior. Hormones are responsible for our instinctive behavior. /quote]

I am quite aware of both definitions: namely instinct and emotions..It just appears that people seem to label humans as being the only species that use intsincts and feel emotion, yet animals only rely on instinct and do not have the capability of emotion..seems like a double standard to me.

Don't you know that hormones are part of biochemical processes of the brain? And therefore, if studies have proven that these "biochemical" processes do fire, in this case, mammals, and these hormones are also responsible for human emotion, than animals demonstrate the ability to feel emotion?

quote:

Dogs and most other mammals are able to recognize baby animals as easily as humans, because of the big head, big eyes, small ears, small nose, etc. And that triggers the nurturing instinct that all mammals have. That instinct that makes us go "Awwwwww! How cute!".

Well, not all mamals. Some dogs wouldn't have the same reaction, even females. And other speices for sure wouldn't have. As you probably know, males lions kill cubs beloning to other males. So maybe some, but not all. I don't want to be the judge then of which animals might deserve rights ( I'll leave that up to God.).

P.S. I know my dog did not have a "human emotion". Of course not, she's a dog. But what I do think that somehow she knew that we would find it wrong for her to kill the rabbit.
P.P.S. So Bushsupporter, maybe animals don't have 'right and wrong' in their standerds, but maybe domestic creatures do know what we consider 'right and wrong', so they act accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by alnswed:
[quote:

Your dog is not experiencing human emotion. She acted on pure instinct. /quote]

Are you completely certain that it is just instinct or the production of oxytocin - the hormone responsible for protective behaviour, especially in mothers? Oxytocin has been found in all mammals, including humans, and oxytocin is a chemical partly responsible for "love"

The production of certain hormones is what causes those instincts to kick in. Do you even know what an instinct is? It is simply an unlearned behavior. Hormones are responsible for our instinctive behavior.

[quote:

Your dog is not experiencing human emotion. She acted on pure instinct. /quote]

Are you completely certain that it is just instinct or the production of oxytocin - the hormone responsible for protective behaviour, especially in mothers? Oxytocin has been found in all mammals, including humans, and oxytocin is a chemical partly responsible for "love"

The debate as to whether animals feel emotions will never be resolved without assuming anthropomorphism.

The reasons why animals have not been attributed emotions is because earlier pioneers of psychology did not get the relevant support from the psych-scientific community.

Now more studies are focussing on whether non-human animals show both emotional and personality traits.

Remember, emotions are generally categorised as that of instinct, which can be easily measured by biochemical changes in the brain. Emotions such as fear, sadness and anger have been reported in non-human animals based on changes in these biochemical changes. These same changes have been found to occur in the human brain.

The other set of emotions, those of "social emotion", such as shame for exapmle, cannot be as easily measured and are products of individual meaning and appropriate in one social setting but out of bounds in another.

While researchers don't agree on how big a role such social emotions play in the animal world, there is widespread agreement that many animals share another emotional characteristic with us: stress. Indeed, like humans, many animals can be harried and "stressed out" -- with sometimes serious health consequences. (eg the Sapolsky project on the social behaviour of baboons, Stanford University)

If people don't believe animals feel emotions, then they should not validate drugs [used in treating human emotions], that have been tested on animals.

quote:

Originally posted by horseartistgrl27:
but somehow she knew not to kill it. This may have been because of our reaction to other baby animals, but how would she reconized that she should not kill a rabbit?

Dogs and most other mammals are able to recognize baby animals as easily as humans, because of the big head, big eyes, small ears, small nose, etc. And that triggers the nurturing instinct that all mammals have. That instinct that makes us go "Awwwwww! How cute!". It's not uncommon for female dogs to have this reaction to baby animals that are not puppies.

Your dog is not experiencing human emotion. She acted on pure instinct.

Now this confuses me.
When I think about my own arguement, I think other dogs may not have reacted the same way, so how could it be a gereral insinct? Other dogs may have killed the rabbit. So could it be an ininct that only few dogs posess? Or maybe my dog is just wierd...
Even though, do we really want to kill animals with empethetic instincts?
I still don't think it's instinct, and that some animals do have a sense of right and wrong... so I'm doing research and remember things... I'll get back to you...