I'm also going to add this Ampmaster.

Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian Diets
J Am Diet Assoc. 2003 Jun;103(6):748-65.

In their 2003 Position Paper on vegetarian diets, the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada state:

Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.



Health Benefits of a Vegetarian Diet
Key TJ, Davey GK, Appleby PN. Proc Nutr Soc. 1999 May;58(2):271-5.

Health Benefits of a Vegetarian Diet, a 1999 paper co-authored by experts on the mortality rates of vegetarians, concludes:

Compared with non-vegetarians, Western vegetarians have a lower mean BMI (by about 1 kg/m2), a lower mean plasma total cholesterol concentration (by about 0.5 mmol/l [19 mg/dl]), and a lower mortality from IHD [ischemic heart disease] (by about 25%). They may also have a lower risk for some other diseases such as diverticular disease, gallstones and appendicitis. No differences in mortality from common cancers have been established. There is no evidence of adverse effects on mortality. Much more information is needed, particularly on other causes of death, osteoporosis, and long-term health in vegans.



I would also like to add, eating an fullfill animal diet causes many illness' Would you like me to back that up to ampmaster, because im an angry vegan on a roll.

Alright Ampmaster, apparantly going to sleep on a heavy thoughtfull mind is difficult. So this is to clear up. I have been revising my knowledge to give you a well backed up statement in reply to some aspects of our arguement.


Meat Consumption in respect to Life Expectancy
Revised after World War II, scientists began to question diet styles and health of the population in the world


There is strong correlation between heavy flesh-eating and short life expectancy. The Eskimos, the Laplanders, the Greenlanders, and the Russian Kurgi tribes stood out as the populations with the highest animal flesh consumption in the world and also as among the populations with the lowest life expectancies, often only about 30 years. {source: Kapleau, Philip, To Cherish All Life, Harper and Row, San Francisco, 1981, page 67. }

If you wish to debate this due to the fact that they lived in sever climates, other groups such as a large number of the Russian Caucasians, the Yucatan Indians, the East Indian To-das and the Pakistan Hunzakuts have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years, including some of the highest life expectancies in the world, these people have adopted either meat free diets, or completely eliminated any forms of animal consumptions.

I think in retrospect to our discussion about "nature" it is important to realise that the United States has the world’s most sophisticated medical technology, and one of the most temperate climates. It’s one the of the highest consumers of meat and animal products in the world. It also has one of the lowest life expectancies of the industrialised nations.

The cultures with the longest life spans in the world are the Vilcambas, who live in the Andes of Ecuador, the Abkhasians, who live on the Black Sea in the USSR, and the Hunzas, who live in the Himalayas of Northern Pakistan. Researchers discovered a "striking similarity" in the diets of these groups, scattered though they are in different parts of the planet. All three are either totally vegetarian or close to it. The Hunzas who are the largest of the three groups, eat almost no animal products. Meat and dairy products combined account for only one and a half percent of their total calories.

Particularly striking to researchers who have visited these cultures is that the people not only live so long, but that they enjoy full, active lives throughout their many years, and show no signs of the many degenerative diseases that afflict the elderly in our culture.

"They work and play at 80 and be-yond; most of those who reach their 100th birthday continue to be ac-tive, and retirement is unheard of. The absence of (excess protein) in their diets engenders slower growth and slim, compact body frames. With age, wisdom accumulates, but physical degeneration is limited so the senior citizens of these remote societies have something unique to contribute to the lives of others. They are revered."


If you need more proof, that in terms of evolution Vegans and Vegetarians will live fuller healthier lives, there was also a study carried out by the German Cancer Research Center.
1900 vegetarians participated in the study carried out since 1978, under the direction of associate professor Dr. Jenny Chang Claude.
The scientists divided the participants into three different dietary groups. A small group - 60 participants - has declared to abstain not only from meat but also from other animal foodstuffs such as milk or eggs (vegans). Two thirds of study partipants do eat eggs and dairy products while avoiding meat (ovo-lacto vegetarians), and roughly one third state to occasionally consume small servings of meat or fish (moderate vegetarians). Eventually coming to the following results: 100 deaths to be statistically expected in the age group of study participants are matched by only 59 real deaths in vegetarians. Looking at male participants only, the positive effect - with only 52 actual deaths - is even more pronounced.


And if you need more, Albert Einstein can back me up with "Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature. If the whole world adopts vegetarianism, it can change the destiny of humankind."

quote:

accept my points as bullshit

only with out evidence miss does an statement become bullshit. Get me that irrefutable proof from un-biased, respectable sources to back up what you say and I'll put down my steak knife and take up a salad shooter

Oh and I've already said that I agree that factory farms are wrong and not good for the enviroment and I still don't see how this backs up your opinion that we need to eat carrots instead of pork chops

I dont particularly wish to debate with you if you're going to only accept my points as bullshit.

But all the while, I will give to you, Dr Jacy Turners Compassion in World Farming Trusts Report.
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/publications/reports/factory_far...environment_1999.pdf

because I'm not going to quote every 5 seconds due to the fact that I must go to bed now because it's nearly christmas, and i have a lot of erronds to run tomorrow.
This was nice, btw.

quote:

If you believe in evolution you should more than support Veganism

how so? because last I checked my Darwin, the strong kill and eat the weak and therefore survive

quote:

Nature has also provided us with the knowledge of health

nature didn't provide shit beyond the bodies we exist in. how can you not grasp this? Some fairy from mother nature didn't fly in to Louis Pasteur's Ear and say "hey if you do this the milk will last longer" No he experiemented and found something that worked

quote:

if you care about the future you should more than care for our environment, because apparantly we're destroying it with absolutely no remorse right now.

I do and I agree but I don't see how me not having a steak will save the planet and you have yet to show that it will

quote:

until you accept that I have a valid point.

Present a Valid point with some freakin evidence to back it up and I'll gladly accept it. But until you back up your claims with some evidence all that you say can only be labled as: bullshit

quote:

Originally posted by ampmaster:

quote:

I feel like you dont realise we are not grizzly bears

I feel like your missing the metaphor here. You wouldn't make an animal that is designed to eat both meat and vegetation eat one or the other so why would you make people who are designed to eat meat and vegetation do that?

and the GAP store is just the high tech version of the leather maker from the tribal days and that wasn't provided by nature either. Man is a took maker we make stuff like that because we can so in essence because we were designed to make tools and that ability to make tools has improved over time yes the GAP store was provided by nature

Nature has also provided us with the knowledge of health, i feel as though I'm repeating myself, I guess I will have to until you accept that I have a valid point. Anyway, nature gave man the ability to create tools, and apparantly she gave us the ability to see and learn new ways to survive and develop. Veganism is one of these.

We were no more designed to eat meat and vegetation than we were not to, the only reason we did was for survival, the only reason we eat is for survival and health.
We can now survive and be healthy without animal produce, this is the way foreward, there is no denying it.
If you believe in evolution you should more than support Veganism, and if you care about the future you should more than care for our environment, because apparantly we're destroying it with absolutely no remorse right now.
Humankind was never supposed to be so horrendous, hence human<b>kind</b>

quote:

I feel like you dont realise we are not grizzly bears

I feel like your missing the metaphor here. You wouldn't make an animal that is designed to eat both meat and vegetation eat one or the other so why would you make people who are designed to eat meat and vegetation do that?

and the GAP store is just the high tech version of the leather maker from the tribal days and that wasn't provided by nature either. Man is a took maker we make stuff like that because we can so in essence because we were designed to make tools and that ability to make tools has improved over time yes the GAP store was provided by nature

quote:

Originally posted by ampmaster:

quote:

that humanity in society now should not be killing animals because we can live without eating them.

So should other omnivores switch to an all plant diet? should we go convince grizzly bears (one of the larger omnivores) that he should switch to berries full time instead of munching on that elk? should we in essence completly pervert what nature has built us for? (which in case your missing the point is to: 1. kill and eat other animals and 2. forage for and/or plant various types of vegetation. Your the one who says we need to respect nature, so why then should we deny a part of our own natures by not eating meat?

I feel like you dont realise we are not grizzly bears.
Grizzly bears dont quite live like us, they dont have the ability to suppliment and sleep in a bed at night.

Nature is and has always been to evolve. Nature has built for us?
If you're gonna play on that arguement why do we live in homes, have shopping malls, I'm sorry I dont believe mother nature flew in one day and said heeeey let me build a GAP store just here and maybe a mansion over here, ooo and i'll shape that bush over there so it matches the decor with the fountain.

quote:

.... Please, dont make me laugh, i'm not an insence burning pot smoking hippy, and most vegans arent either.

I know that's me being sarcastic it's this new concept we have in the english language. However the majority of evidence presented by the pro-vegan community is not scientific in the least. It's more like "the whole world will feel better if we don't have bambi for lunch, thus keeping animal populations down like good predators and keeping ecosystems in balance"

quote:

that it's healthier and will prolongue our lifestyles

disproven (first half) and no evidence what so ever (second half)

quote:

that humanity in society now should not be killing animals because we can live without eating them.

So should other omnivores switch to an all plant diet? should we go convince grizzly bears (one of the larger omnivores) that he should switch to berries full time instead of munching on that elk? should we in essence completly pervert what nature has built us for? (which in case your missing the point is to: 1. kill and eat other animals and 2. forage for and/or plant various types of vegetation. Your the one who says we need to respect nature, so why then should we deny a part of our own natures by not eating meat?

quote:

that being a Vegan is the future

your future maybe, pardon me while I go have a steak

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:

quote:

Again, nobody has justified why we need to eat animals or animal produce yet.

You want justification? Here: it's a personal choice. We want it. There is nothing you can say against that.

Yes there is, it has nothing on the arguement that being a Vegan is the future, that it's healthier and will prolongue our lifestyles, that humanity in society now should not be killing animals because we can live without eating them.


And ampmaster, "vibes are better if we don't have that ham sandwhich"

.... Please, dont make me laugh, i'm not an insence burning pot smoking hippy, and most vegans arent either.


HL, there is nothing more or less realistic about eating less meat than about everyone being vegan.
I'd rather fight for something i believe in than something I dont want to happen just because its more realistic.
Who's to say

quote:

Originally posted by VeganCath:

Horselover, I dont feel like I would bother to waste my time fighting for people to eat less meat when I could more successfully fight for people to not consume animal or animal produce at all.
Again, nobody has justified why we need to eat animals or animal produce yet.

You are never going to convince every one, or even a majority, to go vegetarian, let alone vegan. But if you would concentrate more on the side that we could eat less meat, that would mean less killing and less over crowding. Personally, I think it's more realistic.

quote:

Ampmaster, you're trapped in facts

damn straight. I am trapped in evidence supported and based information resulting from research done by respected and educated scientists. Not some crap smoked up by a nutcase who thinks the vibes are better if we don't have that ham sandwhich

How is being trapped in facts a good thing? I think I'd rather be on the side supported by medical evidence.

quote:

Again, nobody has justified why we need to eat animals or animal produce yet.

You want justification? Here: it's a personal choice. We want it. There is nothing you can say against that.

quote:

Producing animals as food is a cruel disgusting process.

To you, perhaps. And before you say "you just don't know", let me tell you that I've watched the videos PETA puts out of slaughterhouses and whatnot. They didn't bother me at all. I've seen worse on war documentaries, where human beings are slaughtered for mere beliefs and ideas. I think I can stomach animals being killed for food.

But as I've said before, it's all about choice. You can keep to your vegan lifestyle all you want. Just leave me to my hamburgers and eggs. I won't tolerate any attacks on my choice to eat dead animals.

Ampmaster, you're trapped in facts. Please consider that an opinion is based on a belief, and there is no right or wrong opinion of belief, because fact in certain subjects is generally created on one persons opinion, theory or so on.

Horselover, I dont feel like I would bother to waste my time fighting for people to eat less meat when I could more successfully fight for people to not consume animal or animal produce at all.
Again, nobody has justified why we need to eat animals or animal produce yet.

quote:

if it was wrong, it wouldnt be growing.

Uh yeah, bad choice of words there. Wrong things get accepted, and grow rapidly, all the time. Not that being vegan or vegetarian is wrong, I'm just saying think about what stuff like that means before you post it.

Really, I don't see the whole point in proving that we "weren't meant" to eat meat. We don't have wings, therefore we weren't meant to fly and therefore we shouldn't get in planes. However, most people (especially Americans) eat way more meat than is healthy, so if you want to argue that we weren't meant to eat as much meat as we do, I'll give you that one.

That being said, I totally respect anyone who is vegan or vegetarian. I think it's great, and more power to you.

pardon me for not accepting a source called "crazy vegan" as un-biased or professional. All my information comes from certified text books released by the medical establishment. Want their ISBNs?

I have never said that it's impossible to be healthy on a vegan diet (I even pointed out the alternatives to the 9 essentials) however for optimum health, to be as healthy as humanly possible, the human body requires a balanced diet of meats, veggies, fruits and breads (and plenty of water) anything deviation from that will prevent you from reaching that optimum point. You can still be healthy but you won't be as healthy as possible

^o)

ampmaster, i quoted what i've read.
I have no reason to believe what you have written anymore than what other qualified professionals have written.

I dont base being vegan totally on what is written there it does however back up saying things such as humans arent supposed to eat meat, and it proves we dont have to.

I suppose, ampmaster, you're going to tell me that you cant be healthy if you dont consume animals, and that you have to have meat in your diet?
because if you do than I'll throw "uh sorry cath thats... uh well to be blunt bullshit" right back atcha.

quote:

The process involved in digesting animal products and in eliminating the remainder takes large quantities of calcium, in order to pretty much neutralize the acids. This means that greater and greater amounts of calcium are necessary, and that calcium is frequently pulled form the stores in bones. Does that sound familiar, calcium taken from the bones? It should, it's a part of the process that causes osteoporosis.

Uh sorry cath thats...uh well to be blunt bullshit

quote:

if it was wrong, it wouldnt be growing.

which is why nazism and the KKK were so large (not comparing them but people run with ideas that might be bad ideas all the time)

quote:

Amp, back me up here. You're the amino acid king.

thou hast summoned me

To start there are 9 essential amino acids that come from outside the human body. Now the most populace source for these as well as good source of protein is meat. Soy products which are supposed to be a complete meat replacement are said to contain these amino acids. This is incorrect, the amounts of the 9 essentials required by the human body can be provided by a relatively small amount of meat. To replace that you would need to eat an absolutely massive amount of soy products or take a horse pill sized supplement (both of which are largely artifical replacements and are still not the best for the human body)

quote:

meat can stay in the human body for as much as 3 to 4 days before passing through. During this time it is decomposing and putrefying at our constant 96.8 degree of body heat.

who the hell taught you about human digestion? because they were rather obviously complete morons. When food hits the stomache it is digested almost completely. It is broken down by the acids found there in to it's component nutrients and absorbed by the body as it passes through the small intestine anything unprocessable (which is more common coming from vegetation then meat) ends up in the large intestine and is expediently removed from the body (source: my Anat and Phys course book)

There are many diseases that dairy helps to contribute to. Think about it, eating things that a mother has produced for her babies and having it modified to mass produce it, infects the animals' bodies and causes them pain. I think it's really important to understand humans werent meant to eat meat anymore they were. Vegetarianism and Veganism is growing rapidly everyday, if it was wrong,