Hahahaha that made me laugh a lot bookie05!

Also, there is a new method of declawing where they can use lasers to declaw them. The cats can walk after one hour from the operation. So, if you have the money, and it really pains you to see your cat in such a state, then you can choose that procedure.

fem·i·nism ( P ) (fm-nzm)
n.
1.Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2.The movement organized around this belief.
(www.dictionary.com)

I did start to think Slewinca and quite honestly it hurt lol. It is apparent by now that we have a fundamental disagreement on how we view animals. This subject will never be proven right or wrong, but I still like to argue about it lol. That being said here goes. I do concede that my argument about the spay/neutering and the declawing issue was weak from an objective standpoint. I was just trying to prove some of the hypocrisy that exists in PETA and its members. I completely agree with you about how cats do not and will not miss their genitalia, but that was not the point I was trying to make. The point was as I tried to hint at in the title was Can PETA play God? What I meant by this was that is it right for them to make such decisions for animals basically. The argument I used was not perfect by any means, but it is really hard to attack an organization with what I view as good intentions gone awry. I hear you on the fact that PETA is not able to as Bushsupporter put it boycott all the grocery stores that sell meat, because your right people would think they are a bunch of complete wack jobs and not take them seriously, but isn’t that just slightly screwed up for an organization that is so self-righteous to play with peoples minds like that. PETA toes this line of being informative and radical and I don’t like it.

On the issue of vegetarianism… I am healthy now and I know a lot of carnivores that are 45 that are healthy too. I am no doctor or scientist by any means, but here is my thought on the whole vegetarians being healthy when they get older issue. Vegetarians are generally more health conscience than the average adult. They have obviously put a lot of time into deciding the dietary issue of their life. It is because of this that I think it would be easy to see that they are healthier, because if they worry that much about meat they are going to exercise etc etc. I also want to post a url that tries to “debunk” the myths of vegetarianism. I have not read this article in its entirety, but there seems to be some good information in their. I do not believe that it is completely true, because I am sure a biased author wrote it so the slant definitely leans towards the meat eating side.
Debunking Veg Myths

Okay. I do think that condoning violence is promoting it. It is time for a bad analogy… Lets say a kid slaps another kid in the face at school and he/she gets in trouble by the teacher, but at home he/she is given a slap on the wrist and some candy. The kid the next day would probably slap a kid if he was just getting When you say things like you would be the last person to condemn something the public perceives this to be support. I know that PETA would support ALF because they “liberate” animals, but I mean come on they do this by committing crimes. I have also never seen PETA anywhere condemn this type of violence. The FBI reported that there have been over six hundred crimes committed by ELF or ALF since 1996. Their actions have not killed a human being yet. They burn down buildings this could kill someone. Even if this does not kill a person physically we are talking about peoples jobs here. If they burned down my school what would I do. I go there everyday to do my work. What would happen to me? Also contributing to these organizations in any way is almost as bad as contributing to al-quada. They are the biggest domestic terrorist threat the United States has. I know that it is not a crime to contribute to the legal defense of someone, but I would have found another article about how they loaned the family of Rodney Coronado or Coronado himself. Well nevermind here is something extremely recent.. Donating to convicted terrorists
Just look around this site for some of the information that supports my biggest issues with PETA.

Oh and by the way I am completely for spaying and neutering. I do agree with PETA’s argument that if we didn’t everyone including humans lol would be worse off.

It has been fun Slewinca and I will talk to you again after you refute all my statements lol.

I'm not very informed on the topic, but wouldn't not spraying and neutering cats mean we'de suddenly become rampant with these felines untill one day they over-turn our civilization? This is just a theory....

I AM SO CRYING RIGHT NOW.

prevent global warming..it's the only planet with chocolate!

I'm going to change that to my new sig. once my computer stops acting stupid.

random fact about the spaying and neutering.

apparently dolphins and humans are the only ones who have sex for pleasure so you arent depressing your cat by having it spayed/neutered.

about declawing...we got all 3 of our cats declawed because we got the first one declawed and didnt want the others to hurt her, but we felt so guilty about it. and we only got their front paws done and we clip the back claws. If i got my own cat, i wouldnt declaw it because my cats always looked at me like i was a terrible person after they got declawed.

The quote thing is easy. Just click the quote button and copy and paste whatever another person said into the space between the quote brackets.
Anyway, back to the point of this discussion.
The difference between declawing and spaying/neutering is that spaying/neutering usually don't cause pain or have negative side effects later. It's not like the cat suffers from not being able to have sex (at least I don't think they do), since they no longer produce the hormones that give them the urge to do it, they don't go into sexual withdrawl or anything. Many cats and dogs are spayed/neutered before they have sex, so they don't even know what it's like so they probably don't miss it or feel deprived.
With declawing, it's the removal of something that's been there since birth, been used many times and will probably be missed. (with the inability to climb things or defend themselves or etc.)
In short, declawing in most cases is only good for the people who have the cat, while spaying/neutering is good for the cat and the human (the cat is protected from some kinds of cancer and the person who has the cat doesn't have to listen to howling or have them spray ing the house)

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I am just saying that if PETA would apply some of the logic that it uses in other instances they would be a lot better off.

I don't see how they would be. Everyone would hate them then, don't you see that? Pretty much the whole animal protection community is for spaying/neutering, how would that make PETA look to the public if they spoke out against it? And to use an anology that Bushsupporter used on a thread of mine, if PETA were to tell people to boycott all grocery stores that sell meat, people would think they were dumb and crazy. Plus the boycott would never work. Being totally consistent with every single thing isn't the way to go.

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I would also like to point out that I eat a lot of meat and am completely healthy.

Sure, you are now, you're 17. Report back when you're 45.
I haven't been a vegetarian my whole life you know, I just went veg last year as a matter of fact. I felt fine beforehand but the thing is that eating bad stuff doesn't really have a drastic effect when you're young, it's when you get older you see the results.
Don't say I didn't warn you...

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Also PETA does promote violence by condoning it i.e when Ingrid Newkirk said something to the effect that she will be the last one to condemn ALF (a very serious domestic terrorist threat as determined by the Federal Bureau of Investigation) and contributing to the legal defenses of domestic terrorists convicted of their crimes.

That isn't really promoting violence, she doesn't condemn the ALF (Animal Liberation Front) because they liberate animals, and why would she be against that? She even wrote a book about the ALF's animal liberations.
And keep in mind that animal rights activism, legal or illegal, has never killed a human being, ever.
And since when is providing legal support a crime? That's not exactly like giving money to al-quada.

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Oh one more thing if you do not think that humans are leaps and bounds superior than all other animals that is just crazy.

I was just providing a different perspective, that's all. Made ya think, didn't I?

I guess we're both a little crazy, aren't we?

Ok where do I start… I hate to say it but you are completely wrong about one thing and that is my main point. I would use this sites quote feature, but I don’t know how so you say “note that nowhere does it state that if cats could speak they would object to the surjery”, however you also use one of PETA’s standpoints earlier (which is the same one that I used I believe) “If you asked your cat if it would be okay to put her through 10 separate, painful amputations that would weaken her legs, shoulders, and back muscles, she would probably say "no"” The emphasis on this line is in say which in fact does state or at the very least strongly insinuate if cats could speak they would object to the surgery. I agree with you about how a lot of people not just PETA control animals sex lives. I am just saying that if PETA would apply some of the logic that it uses in other instances they would be a lot better off. I was not saying that PETA was trying to play God because of the fact that they control animals sex lives; I was trying to say that PETA is trying to play God because they are not consistent with their reasoning by picking and choosing logic when it applies to their own agenda and attacking anyone who does not agree with them. I would also like to point out that I eat a lot of meat and am completely healthy. Also PETA does promote violence by condoning it i.e when Ingrid Newkirk said something to the effect that she will be the last one to condemn ALF (a very serious domestic terrorist threat as determined by the Federal Bureau of Investigation) and contributing to the legal defenses of domestic terrorists convicted of their crimes. Oh one more thing if you do not think that humans are leaps and bounds superior than all other animals that is just crazy. Sure we cannot run and jump as fast, but this is a case of brains over brawn. You should be thankful we are so much superior if not you would be struggling to survive right now. I think that about wraps it up for me and hey who knows maybe I am the crazy one lol.

It seems that I'm one of the very few people here who is not adamantly anti-PETA so I think I'm qualified to post here. I hope I'm right

Anywho, this does seem to be a paradoxical issue. First off, I'll post the actual PETA positions on both issues here (taken from www.askcarla.com) :

Is it OK to declaw cats?

If you asked your cat if it would be okay to put her through 10 separate, painful amputations that would weaken her legs, shoulders, and back muscles, she would probably say "no"—and she wouldn’t be alone. Many veterinarians in the U.S. and abroad absolutely refuse to declaw cats. In fact, in Germany and some other parts of Europe, declawing is illegal. Cats who have been declawed experience extreme pain when coming out of anesthesia and have difficulty walking until their paws heal. Without their claws, cats are virtually defenseless, and this can lead to neurosis and even skin and bladder problems.

Cats can easily be taught not to scratch furniture with the aid of a scratching post and firm, consistent instructions on where they may and may not scratch. To learn more, please visit PETA's declawing factsheet.

(note that nowhere does it state that if cats could speak they would object to the surjery)

Does PETA advocate spaying and neutering of companion animals?

Yes, vigorously! This year, millions of wonderful animals will go through the front doors of shelters—and go out the back door in body bags. Many more will be abandoned in the streets. All of this misery and death could be prevented through spaying and neutering (surgical sterilization). Every stray cat and every neglected dog came from an animal who wasn’t spayed or neutered.

By preventing animals from being born, we prevent animals from being hit by cars, infected with lingering, painful diseases, attacked by other animals or cruel people, stolen by laboratory dealers, used as bait by dogfighters, or simply stuck outside to die of starvation, exposure, or neglect.

Spaying and neutering will help stop this cycle of abuse. PETA works very hard on this, educating the public about the need to spay and neuter through pamphlets, billboards, letters to the editor, ads, public service announcements, articles, and humane education in schools. We also provide spaying and neutering services for animal companions of low-income families and the elderly.

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Think about it this way, if PETA did take an anti-spay/neutering stance, wouldn't that give them a bad reputation and to add to that have them shunned from the animal protection community?
Face it, many animal organizations promote spaying and neutering, not just animal rights ones like PETA. To be consistent here, you would have to say that the ASPCA, The Humane Society of the United States and animal shelters across the country are playing God as well since they promote spaying/neutering.
On the controlling of sex lives thing, we already do a lot of that even without spaying/neutering. Think about it, a lot of people keep their cats inside, and some people have only one cat or more and they may be of the same sex. Since they don't let their cats outdoors and don't have other cats around of the opposite sex, they are controlling their sex lives.

You could go the opposite way with this and say that cat/dog breeding is interfering with the animals' natural sex life as well since they are being forced to get it on if you will.

You could go even further and say that anyone who has a animal as a pet is controlling their lives, deciding when they'll be fed, when they'll go outside to play, etc.

So you see, spaying/neutering isn't really all that different from the other ways that people control animals' lives, just in that it involves the sexual lives of the animals. (I know of a few animals who have sex for pleasure, I think they're dolphins, pigs and bonobos [aka pygmy chimpanzees])

And for animals having equal rights as humans, well, that could never happen. Why? Because it would be pointless to give all the rights humans have to animals, like the right to vote for example.

PETA does not say that humans and animals have equal rights, they say that they have basic rights, like that of a small child (that's my comparison, not PETA's. I don't know of a better example, I hope that isn't insulting to anyone).

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PETA is basically an organization of crazy terrorists who, if they had to choose, everyone would be a vegan, and we would be living in the Planet of the Apes.

Crazy terrorists, right. I don't really see the problem with the vegan thing, unless you're referring to some kind of violent force, which PETA would not do.
Planet of the Apes? Where on earth did you get that?

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Dude PETA are all nuts (and frigin veegies) all the vegtables they cause then to go into a rage at the sight of meat but the thing is it is natural for man to eat both meat and veggies we (mankind) are omnivorus so PETA is way their own chart sides why not declaw a cat or spay or neuter our other animals we are the superior species and domestic animals have been changed and shaped by men (as species) since a caveman domestcated the first wolf why stop now?

I don't go into a fit of rage when I see meat. Assumptions will get you nowhere here.
And about being omnivorus, I'm a vegetarian and I'm just fine. You make it sound as if all vegetarians/vegans are on life support because people can't live without meat. The only reason our ancestors ate meat at all was because they invented tools to kill animals (i.e. the spear on a stick) and they couldn't eat anything else in the winter.
Here's PETA's position on this (also taken from www.askcarla.com) :

Aren’t humans natural carnivores?

While humans have eaten meat throughout history, there is significant evidence that we are better suited to a vegetarian diet. Carnivorous animals have long, curved fangs, claws, and a short digestive tract. Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to carnivores’. Human teeth are better suited to biting into vegetables, fruits, and grains than tearing through tough hides.

In addition, the health problems associated with meat consumption—a leading contributor to heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, and obesity—should be an indication that we aren’t "meant" to eat meat. In addition, humans are capable of making ethical decisions. We can get all the nutrients we need from plant sources, which means that billions of animals are unnecessarily slaughtered every year at the expense of our health and the environment.

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It seems as if the only part of humans that is superior to animals is our intelligence, but in other respects, animals beat humans, like when it comes to sense of smell, vision and hearing. (in fact, it may have been the asian elephants' keen sense of hearing that helped alert them to the tsunami so they could get away before it came) Sure our cars help us go faster than any animal, but on foot we're pretty slow. Sure we can fly with an airplane, but can we fly on our own?

So if you think about it, no one is really all that superior.

Or maybe I'm just crazy.

What's foreplay?!? muahahaha.

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their reasoning is in part that if the cat was asked to consent to the declawing operation the cat would say no.

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Meow meow meow meow meow meow meow.

Please tell me they were not saying that. I mean, that's just laughably stupid.

PETA shouldn't play God. It should play with the Devil and burn in Hell for eternity.

quote:

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Originally posted by Barkid:
After some careful thinking I have decided to keep my test.icles, you may remove my fingernails or even my fingers and I'll be okay.

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You underestimate the importance of foreplay my friend.

After some careful thinking I have decided to keep my test.icles, you may remove my fingernails or even my fingers and I'll be okay.

Dude PETA are all nuts (and frigin veegies) all the vegtables they cause then to go into a rage at the sight of meat but the thing is it is natural for man to eat both meat and veggies we (mankind) are omnivorus so PETA is way their own chart sides why not declaw a cat or spay or neuter our other animals we are the superior species and domestic animals have been changed and shaped by men (as species) since a caveman domestcated the first wolf why stop now?

PETA is basically an organization of crazy terrorists who, if they had to choose, everyone would be a vegan, and we would be living in the Planet of the Apes.
Yes, I feel that animal abuse is wrong, and that it should be illegal, but saying that we can't declaw our cats? When I first heard of PETA, I thought it sounded like a good thing, but then, as I read between the lines, I was horrified by what they stand for. Animals to be our equals? How about not?

In the case of being against declawing but for neutering since they are equal in rights to people...
hmmmm....
Would I keep my fingers or my test.icles...

I'll get back to you.

Just as a clarificatioon I meant to use the word refute instead of refirm in the fifth line. I guess I should not be staying up that late lol!