{quote:

Meat, mostly Fish, has DHA an ESSENTIAL fatty acid for brain development as I said before, which is something you can't get enough of in an all vegetarian diet /quote]

I'm not naive and do agree that a vego diet provides a smaller availability of DHA, just like I'm not naive that a diet incorporating meat does not supply all the required nutrients, as people i know who rely on meat as being the primary nutritional source, do not consume enough fresh vegetables and fruit, as meat is the centre of their diet. (Perhaps it may be a cultural thing, as Im an Aussie, and Aussie blokes just.dont.eat.vegies.) I also think its naive to believe ALL vegos arent getting their necessary dietary intake, yet all meat eaters are. There will always be individual differences.

On further note of DHA, even people who do eat meat can suffer from low levels of DHA as they can have a problem metabolizing it to form the docosanoids, and thus can lead to a low reduction of brain seratonin levels. It has also been linked to depression...so since we can throw [personal] hypothesis out there, based on your reasoning of "brain power", all depressives lack brain power? and that all depressives are likely to be vegos?

[quote: to horseartistgirl

and ocassionaly fish (like once a month), which I know is odd for vegiterians /quote]

But if you eat fish (even once a month), should you label yourself as a vego..since its equivalent to eating red meat once a month..youre still consuming an animal meat product

[quote clpo13

I think you misunderstand me: meat tastes good. That's why I eat it.

Just because something gives you momentary pleasure, does not make it right or founded. Dont misread this, but its the same principle: ask a paedophile why they have sex with kids, and to them its because it makes them feel good in some way, and they too dont give a damn of the consequences of their actions.

{Quote:
Well, why should I care? My needs take priority. If I can't satisfy my own needs, I can't do anything else. /quote]

Your needs? are we talking about the basic needs of survival, or those needs that make your life more enjoyable, rather than for a survival purpose? Unless you're totally homeless, starving and without water and oxygen, you have all your needs. I think it may have more to do with your self divined right to have the best lifestyle you can, which is not a bad thing, but its more a self centred approach.

Whether its the environment that is slowly being f****ed up, or the children out there working in 'sweat shops', or even the animals being killed, just for you to enjoy your lifestyle, then dont you have at least SOME responsibility to at least give something back? Whether its to do with environmental rights, human rights or animal rights? To just TAKE and yet offer no help, no matter how small, is something that is unforgiveable.

Anyway, in case none of you noticed. I'm not against Vegetarianism at all. In fact, I'm Semi-Vegetarian. I just don't like logical fallacies.

quote:

Bushsupporter:
I am not taking a pill for something that I can consume and tastes good. Give me a break.

I think you misunderstand me: meat tastes good. That's why I eat it.

quote:

alnswed:
ppl just dont care about things outside their own needs

Well, why should I care? My needs take priority. If I can't satisfy my own needs, I can't do anything else.

For all you who say that you don't like the idea of supplements...

I don't take supplements, and I'm fine.
I do eat eggs often though, and ocassionaly fish (like once a month), which I know is odd for vegiterians, but you don't kill an animal when you eat an egg! I've tried to explain that to some kids at my school, but they just don't get it. HA HA HA

Oh, and earthgoddess, when you said that it's good that poeple cuz they have a stronger immune system later on, that doesn't mean that vegiterians won't have a stong one too. Plus, there are plenty of ways to get sick without eating meat! (like dropping a sucker on the ground and putting it in your mouth again. I must have a pretty stong immune system though, cuz i did that and didnt get sick. I don't even have my toncels!) HE HE HE HE HE!

quote:

Originally posted by typAsmith:

quote:

Originally posted by ampmaster:
Those can only help and nuts and other meat replacements are poor subsatutes the best way to keep your body at 100% is Lotsa Veggies, Lotsa fruits, a good amount of meat, some dairy, some bread products, healthy fats and as little sugar as possible.

There is no actual requirement for meat in your diet Just a requirement for protien, as far as amino acids go.. the only nutrient veg. are prone to lack is B12 which can be taken as a supplement. Iron can also be low in women, but it is uncommon that a vegetarian diet would cause iron deffiency in a healthy diet.

Meat, mostly Fish, has DHA an ESSENTIAL fatty acid for brain development as I said before, which is something you can't get enough of in an all vegetarian diet.

quote:

Originally posted by alnswed:
reply to earthgoddess...

why the insults? each to their own, i guess. thanks for an intelligent and rational discussion..not!

That's fancy talk for "EarthGoddess, beat me. So, instead of admitting it, I'll come up with some 'clever' comeback that is really unfunny and unoriginal."

quote:

In response to earthgoddess, you are right, and you have engineered one of the greatest posts in youthNOISE history, funny, logical, witty, and sharp. Brilliant.

Because I'm just awesome like that.

quote:

so you're not basing the assertions on any scientific fact, that vegos will definately be wiped out by ebola? just on a personal hypothesis? that's convincing.

I'm using existing scientific fact to create my hypothesis. That's how the scientific method works, silly boots.

quote:

yes, i agree that white blood cells do have a 'memory' and readaptation to CERTAIN strains..but based on your logic, the sicker you are during your life, the healthier you'll be?

The healthier you'll be later in life. All my childhood, I was sick with the flu, bronchitis, pneumonia, common cold, whooping cough and strep throat, every single year during the winter months of Alaska. As of right now, I haven't had a flu shot in almost 5 years, and I haven't had a major illness in 4 years. Only simple things like a runny nose occasionally, which is due to the poor air quality in Portland, OR, as I am so used to Alaska's cleaner air.

quote:

people's intelligence has nothing to do with what they eat. Furthermore, isnt it a general consensus among meat eaters that vegos are more sickly and weak? so based on your premise, vegos are actually healthier than meat eaters (because we dont eat a healthy diet consisting of meat)?

I tried an all vegetation diet, and I actually was sickly and weak. I barely had the energy to stay awake. What's good you, isn't good for everyone else.

Since humans are omnivores, either diet is healthy. But meat-eaters are left with the burden of having to exercise more.

quote:

I can assure you that I wouldnt feel too well at all, as the human body is not designed to eat raw flesh, aka raw chicken.

Certain human bodies are designed to eat raw meat. Wanna know what Eskimo means? RAW MEAT EATER! They eat almost nothing but raw meat, rotten meat, fermented meat, and fermented blubber, because vegatation can't grow where they live, and they live well into their 80s. And never get sick from it. Native peoples are immune to the nasty germs in the crazy foods they eat. Anyone else would get violently ill, because they suck.

quote:

Quite the contrary, meat consumption has actually RISEN as it correlates to an increase in the global human population, as well as many third world countries, such as China, becoming more wealthy and able to use intensive farming methods to satisfy this. are our brains shrinking? since the majority of people eat meat.....does that mean that meat eating shrinks your brain?

Maybe I didn't write that too well. I'll reiterate: The amount of meat being consumed by each individual human (per capita) is less than what it used to be, due to the invention of agriculture. Individual humans thousands of years ago would eat several pounds of meat in one sitting. Now, most people only eat a few ounces. As a result, the human brain has shrunk in size by 11% in the last 10,000 years. I wish I can find the paleoanthropology article that I read that from, but it's out there.

Several pounds of meat per human per day 10,000 years ago = brain grows. A few ounces of meat per human per day today = brain shrinks. No meat = brain shrinks more. I don't know how to make it any simpler for you. Whether you want to believe paleoanthropological findings is up to you. They're still facts. You can put a pig in a dress and call it Mindy, but it's still a pig.

quote:

I know that vitamin D absorption is to do with sunlight, just as iron absorption is improved by also consuming vitamin C. The link between Vitamin D deficiency and bone loss and osteoporosis is interesting.. can you pass on some scientific and medical support to that please?

Rickets.

Anyway, it's simple common sense don't you think? Vitamin D helps you absorb calcium. You don't get enough of it, you don't absord enough calcium. You don't absorb enough calcium, you develop bone dieases, such as Rickets, Osteoporosis, and bone loss. There's no need for scientific research, it's simple preschool logic. But you're free to research it if you like. There's a reason why osteoporosis is not an issue in Africa, almost everyone spends most of their days out in the intense sun. Where they eat raw meat and drink cow's blood....

quote:

Maybe its not a matter of 'defeating' you in a debate, but to them its more to do with your logical and reasoning to be without substance, and therefore, not wasting their time? (just a thought..) oh, btw as a vego, I think I type, communicate and spell pretty well.

Oh please, I've driven out most of the Vegan pyschos that dared enter the realm of YN. I'd bring up something profound, I get called a nasty name and they leave forever.

quote:

True. they dont suffer as much, but it doesnt deny the fact that they STILL suffer.

Who's denying anything? I said I believed factory farming is wrong. I only brought that up because you seem to think that it's just humans that make animals suffer through horrible deaths.

quote:

fair enough if you agree with unfounded, personal hypotheses, sarcasm and insults, as formulating rational and respectable discussion based on generalisations rather than evidence.

I do have evidence to back myself up actually. I've already posted ton links on these boards in the past, but I don't want to waste time looking for them again. But they are there. Somewhere. Older members may be able to help you out with that. Or just Google some of the things I've said. You'll find it.

And hey, my debate style involves sarcasm and light insults. You'll live.

quote:

She professed that it was olive oil, not meat that attributed to her longevity.

I'm pretty sure she ate other things, genius.

People say a lot of things attribute to their longevity. One lady said eating seafood everyday helped, another said it was prayer, another said it avoiding smoking and drinking, another said it was because they ate steak everyday. When in reality they're all wrong, old age is mostly genetic. Diet only helps a little.

Seriously, once I hit 80 years old I'm jumping off a bridge. I don't want to be that old. Ever. Good luck with having to have your pissed off Great Great Great Grandkids changing your adult diapers everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by ampmaster:
Those can only help and nuts and other meat replacements are poor subsatutes the best way to keep your body at 100% is Lotsa Veggies, Lotsa fruits, a good amount of meat, some dairy, some bread products, healthy fats and as little sugar as possible.

There is no actual requirement for meat in your diet Just a requirement for protien, as far as amino acids go.. the only nutrient veg. are prone to lack is B12 which can be taken as a supplement. Iron can also be low in women, but it is uncommon that a vegetarian diet would cause iron deffiency in a healthy diet.

Though there are health benefits to eating meat and fish regularly, the dangerous associated with the processing of these products makes these seemingly healthy foods tainted and gross. Meat that is poorly cared for can carry bacteria and other illness-causing microorganisms. Animals are also injected with growth hormones, steriods, and other things that end up in their flesh that we eat. I prefer fresh foods (a vegan diet) because I can control what goes into my body. Meat is not just meat. Milk is not just milk. I would also like to note that we are the only species that drinks ANOTHER animals milk and that we are the only adult species to still drink milk. You wouldn't drink your mom's breast milk as a teen would you?! Remember that the ability to digest cows milk is actually a mutation in the human body. The idea behind the concept is just disturbing, and the only reason people drink milk is to get their calcium. The reality is that milk is advertised to be "calcium rich" so that people will buy it. It's a very well done marketing ploy that has engraved into the minds of consumers that milk equals calcium. Calcium is also available in many vegetables.
There is so much more to be said about the curruption marketing causes. Also, the information you suggest to people to be healthy, is so basic and ignorant. Do you know that the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDAs) are regulated by the same government agencies that recieve funding from the dairy industry. No wonder they say have two glasses a day!

[quote:
That's my own hypothesis./quote]

so you're not basing the assertions on any scientific fact, that vegos will definately be wiped out by ebola? just on a personal hypothesis? that's convincing.

yes, i agree that white blood cells do have a 'memory' and readaptation to CERTAIN strains..but based on your logic, the sicker you are during your life, the healthier you'll be?
you also base your point of view on vego intelligence on your discussions with stupid vegetarians..fair enough. i have also had discussions with stupid vegos AND stupid meat eaters...people's intelligence has nothing to do with what they eat. Furthermore, isnt it a general consensus among meat eaters that vegos are more sickly and weak? so based on your premise, vegos are actually healthier than meat eaters (because we dont eat a healthy diet consisting of meat)?

[quote: The problem with you dorks is that you're too focused on what people eat, rather than their activity level. It's a combination of both that affects our health negatively. /quote]

really? was there an international poll that I didnt know about? that assertion is likened to vegos thinking that all meat eaters are uncaring individuals not willing to consider the affects of their choices on animals and the environment..something that I, as a vegan, disagree with. But, I do agree that diet is not the sole factor in a healthy life, and proper exercise and activity is just as important.

[quote:
Got to Alaska and eat some rotten seal meat. Let me know how well you are after that. /quote]

I can assure you that I wouldnt feel too well at all, as the human body is not designed to eat raw flesh, aka raw chicken.

[quote:
Human beings are actually eating less meat than we used to, before the invention of agriculture. And as a result, our brains are getting smaller. /quote]

Quite the contrary, meat consumption has actually RISEN as it correlates to an increase in the global human population, as well as many third world countries, such as China, becoming more wealthy and able to use intensive farming methods to satisfy this. are our brains shrinking? since the majority of people eat meat.....does that mean that meat eating shrinks your brain?

[quote:
Hello? I just told you, lack of Vitamin D comes from lack of sunlight. Not laziness. Don't be stupid. /quote]

I was being flippant..since you suggest that people with busy lifestyles rely more on fast food than home based foods, and arent drive thrus a quick and easy means of ordering food rather than walking into a restaurant, waiting and ordering? I know that vitamin D absorption is to do with sunlight, just as iron absorption is improved by also consuming vitamin C. The link between Vitamin D deficiency and bone loss and osteoporosis is interesting.. can you pass on some scientific and medical support to that please?

[quote:
Two? That's it? For every one smart vegetarian you bring up, I can think of 50 stupid ones.]

No, there are more. It was more of an argument to your claim that ALL vegetarians are stupid or lacking intelligence.

Yes, there are more intelligent people out there who happen to eat meat, but once again its nothing to do with diet, but the fact that there are more meat eaters than vegos...its numbers, not individual ability..this is akin to saying that other minority groups are less intelligent than whites because there are less examples of those minority individuals who have contributed significantly to human progress....In response, since there are far more meat eaters than vegos, for every vego I bring up, there are at least 75 stupid meat eaters.

[quote:

I'm claiming all the vegetarians I've met personally are dumb. Dumb, messy, childish, incapable of typing properly, unable to defeat me in a debate..../quote]

fair enough, but maybe thats a reflection on more of the group you happen to come across...I, have also met dumb vegos AND dumb meat eaters... more dumb meat eaters because there are more meateaters than vegos out there. Maybe its not a matter of 'defeating' you in a debate, but to them its more to do with your logical and reasoning to be without substance, and therefore, not wasting their time? (just a thought..) oh, btw as a vego, I think I type, communicate and spell pretty well..

[quote:

I just don't think factory farm killed animals suffer as much as would if they were killed by hyenas, who don't even bother killing their food. /quote]

True. they dont suffer as much, but it doesnt deny the fact that they STILL suffer.


in response to bushsupporter: [quote:


In response to earthgoddess, you are right, and you have engineered one of the greatest posts in youthNOISE history, funny, logical, witty, and sharp. Brilliant. /quote]

fair enough if you agree with unfounded, personal hypotheses, sarcasm and insults, as formulating rational and respectable discussion based on generalisations rather than evidence.

[quote:

Look at Italians, they eat nothing but starch and meat and they live to be 127 years old. Obviously, done the right way, a diet with meat can actually be better for you.]

Really? I have never found any documentation of a 127 yo Italian. The oldest validated supercentenarian on record was a French woman by the name of Jeanne Calmet, who lived to be 122yo. She professed that it was olive oil, not meat that attributed to her longevity.

Btw, There are individuals from all CULTURES that live past 100 years. Fyi- one of the oldest living persons as of 2006 was a vegetarian by the name of Du Pinhua(120) from the Sichuan province, China

clpo13..u dont care? thats the problem with the way of the world..ppl just dont care about things outside their own needs..its a shame

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:

quote:

why do you need to support animal cruelty and taking of life to get the vitamins and minerals that can be easily gained from a vego diet and vitamin supplements?

Simplest answer ever: it tastes good.

I know exactly how factory farmed animals die. I know exactly how they live. And I just don't care.

I am not taking a pill for something that I can consume and tastes good. Give me a break.

In response to earthgoddess, you are right, and you have engineered one of the greatest posts in youthNOISE history, funny, logical, witty, and sharp. Brilliant.

Look at Italians, they eat nothing but starch and meat and they live to be 127 years old. Obviously, done the right way, a diet with meat can actually be better for you.

reply to earthgoddess...

why the insults? each to their own, i guess. thanks for an intelligent and rational discussion..not!

quote:

Originally posted by alnswed:

quote:

If Ebola hit the U.S., I guarantee you, Vegans and Vegetarians will be the first to go.

Are you sure about this? What evidence do you have to prove that vegos will be the "first to go?".

That's my own hypothesis. It's a scientific fact that if you never get sick, your immune system is not very strong at all. But for every time you do get sick, your immune system gets stronger, because your white blood cells will "remember" the bacterium or viruses that they had to fight. Therefore, people who get sick a lot, would have a better chance against Ebola, than those who do not.

quote:

Furthermore, one just has to look at the increase in correlation between diet and common health diseases, such as heart problems, diabetes, some forms of cancer..just to name a few. Do the research and you'll find that there are more meat eaters out there that suffer from more health related problems due to diet choices than vegos.

I know that more meat eaters suffer from heart problems and diabetes. Where did I ever deny that? But the problem is that most meat eaters are not health and tend to be sedentary. As long as you burn off the calories you take in, you'll probably never experience health problems. Hell, I've seen vegan girls who probably weigh double what I weigh. Too many vegan brownies perhaps?

The problem with you dorks is that you're too focused on what people eat, rather than their activity level. It's a combination of both that affects our health negatively.

quote:

Immune system? What has that do with meat consumption..please give evidence.
oh btw..native cultures such as red indians and in particular, australian aborigines, had a high meat based diet, and look at how many were wiped out there from white mans common ailments....

Because their immune systems were not prepared for that. This is why most of the very first English settlers in America died from diseases the Natives where used to. The outcome of that would not have been any different if either were vegetarian.

Got to Alaska and eat some rotten seal meat. Let me know how well you are after that.

quote:

you support nature? is this coming from someone who relies on a cilvilised world and all its benefits? thats right...we hunt at supermarkets and grocery stores

Yep. Even ants have "grocery stores". And to be honest, if I were able to, I'd only eat meat I hunted and killed myself.

quote:

Furthermore, DIET is part of the western lifestyle...and there is too much meat being consumed

Human beings are actually eating less meat than we used to, before the invention of agriculture. And as a result, our brains are getting smaller.

quote:

People should make the time to exercise and eat healthy rather than going to fast food joints and woofing down a hamburger.

That's not possible for some people. People just seem to really like working their asses off so they can support their families for some strange reason. Anyway, I can see that it's starting to change a bit, since more Whole Foods stores are opening across the nation and more people are going to Subway.

quote:

lack of vitamin d, huh? that's because too many of you are sitting in fast food drive thrus....Don't be lazy.

Hello? I just told you, lack of Vitamin D comes from lack of sunlight. Not laziness. Don't be stupid.

quote:

Really? nutrition from pills? Considering that the U.S is the country that relies heavily on pharmaceuticals?

Maybe that has some correlation with heart disease as well....

quote:

vegos lacking brain power? I dont think leonardo da vinci and einstein would agree..since they were both vegetarians

Two? That's it? For every one smart vegetarian you bring up, I can think of 50 stupid ones.

quote:

are u claiming that all vegetarians are dumb? tut tut..there are quite a large number of idiots out there and it's not due to diet...

I'm claiming all the vegetarians I've met personally are dumb. Dumb, messy, childish, incapable of typing properly, unable to defeat me in a debate....

quote:

The way hyenas kill their food? Oh thats right.. factory farmed animals just "die" humanely...a typical meat eaters ignorance there.

As much as I am opposed to factory farming. I just don't think factory farm killed animals suffer as much as would if they were killed by hyenas, who don't even bother killing their food. They just knock it down and start eating. They'll rip off legs and pull out an animal's entrails and eat, while it's alive.

quote:

why do you need to support animal cruelty and taking of life to get the vitamins and minerals that can be easily gained from a vego diet and vitamin supplements?

Simplest answer ever: it tastes good.

I know exactly how factory farmed animals die. I know exactly how they live. And I just don't care.

quote:

If Ebola hit the U.S., I guarantee you, Vegans and Vegetarians will be the first to go.

Are you sure about this? What evidence do you have to prove that vegos will be the "first to go?". Furthermore, one just has to look at the increase in correlation between diet and common health diseases, such as heart problems, diabetes, some forms of cancer..just to name a few. Do the research and you'll find that there are more meat eaters out there that suffer from more health related problems due to diet choices than vegos. Immune system? What has that do with meat consumption..please give evidence.
oh btw..native cultures such as red indians and in particular, australian aborigines, had a high meat based diet, and look at how many were wiped out there from white mans common ailments....

you support nature? is this coming from someone who relies on a cilvilised world and all its benefits? thats right...we hunt at supermarkets and grocery stores

Furthermore, DIET is part of the western lifestyle...and there is too much meat being consumed. People should make the time to exercise and eat healthy rather than going to fast food joints and woofing down a hamburger. lack of vitamin d, huh? that's because too many of you are sitting in fast food drive thrus....Don't be lazy. I'd rather make the effort and make the time, than take no responsibility for my self made lifestyle.

Really? nutrition from pills? Considering that the U.S is the country that relies heavily on pharmaceuticals?

vegos lacking brain power? I dont think leonardo da vinci and einstein would agree..since they were both vegetarians

are u claiming that all vegetarians are dumb? tut tut..there are quite a large number of idiots out there and it's not due to diet...

The way hyenas kill their food? Oh thats right.. factory farmed animals just "die" humanely...a typical meat eaters ignorance there.

quote:

Originally posted by alnswed:

2. furthermore, The higher sulphur-to-calcium ratio of meat increases calcium excretion, and a diet rich in meat can cause bone demineralization. A study on the amount of calcium excreted in the urine of 15 subjects showed that the animal-protein diet caused greater loss of bone calcium in the urine (150mg/day) compared to an all-vegetable protein diet (103mg/day). These findings suggest that diets providing vegetables rather than animal protein may actually protect against bone loss and osteoporosis

Actually, the biggest cause of bone loss and osteoporosis is a lack of vitamin D. Most Americans spend a lot of time indoors, and fail to get enough sun light, which is how we get vitamin D.

I should also point out that people who eat meat have higher levels of DHA in their bodies, an essential fatty acid that is vital to a healthy brain. In other words, Vegans and Vegetarians are lacking brain power. Considering, I've never met a smart one, I believe it....

quote:

why do you need to support animal cruelty and taking of life to get the vitamins and minerals that can be easily gained from a vego diet and vitamin supplements? and don't think that all those supplements out there are marketed for vegetarians or vegans....if so, there must be millions of vego's out there and not neat-centred eaters.

Because it's natural, and I support nature, not supplements. I don't want to live in a world where people get the nutrition they need from pills.

Considering the way Hyenas kill their food, I'd say we're down-right merciful.

quote:

4. its not a matter of eating no meat, ppl in the western world are eating TOO much meat and NOT ENOUGH fruit and vegetables (no wonder there is an increase in cancers, heart disease, kidnet disease, calcium stones and obesity)

That's mostly attributed to being sedentary. We wake up in the morning, get in our cars and drive to work or school, sit at a desk for a few hours, grab something fast for lunch, sit at that desk for a few more hours, drive back home, sit in front of the TV for awhile, go to bed and repeat. The Western lifestyle makes getting exercise and healthy food difficult. I'd personally rather get something quick and unhealthy than starve.

quote:

oh btw...there are more sick meat eaters out there than vegetarians/vegans

And that's a good thing. People who get sick often have stronger immune systems later in life. This is how Native Alaskans and other indigenous people are able to eat rotten meat and fish, without getting sick. If Ebola hit the U.S., I guarantee you, Vegans and Vegetarians will be the first to go.