I became a vegetarian for one reason only... animal rights. I strongly disagree with the killing of innocent animals to benefit ourselves, however, I think that vegans may be taking things a bit too far. I mean, if the animal is not being harmed, then why fret about it? I have nothing against vegans, in fact, my favourite musician of all time is a vegan, I just don't think that cutting absolutly everything related to animals out of your diet is necessary.

Please state your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by LetsStopThisInWV:
I totally agree that vegans are taking it too far. Vegetarians are bad enough. I mean my own sister is a vegetarian but its nuts. You're not stopping anything by not eating meat. Animals need to have their populations controlled. With vegans though I have to say that not drinking milk is crazy. Cows have to be milked or they could get sick. The same with goats. And if you don't eat eggs either. That's just weird. Chickens are going to lay eggs no matter what. They are chickens and that's what they do! You are not hurting a chicken by eating an egg. So chill-lax!

The animal's numbers are only "over-populous" because we breed them.

quote:

See, since we BREED animals for our consumption, cattle, pigs, chickens, turkeys, etc., we can easily breed LESS of them to match demand. Unless you're talking about wild animals, the population control argument doesn't apply here. Farmers aren't going to breed animals they can't sell, so if demand goes down, less animals are born to

The problem is, animals are harmed when they are kept for milk or eggs. Veal- poor, slaughtered baby cow- is an inevitable by-product of the milk industry (which already mistreats the poor beasts) and chickens- even those labeled "free-range" or "organic" (There is barely a standard for such labels, they're all ridiculous- google it) are also put through terrible conditions- living in giant sheds, air full of ammonia from their fecal matter because they can't clean the place until it's completely empty (I.E., chickens are slaughtered). I am not making any of this up, and I beg you to research it... The animals need us to be informed on their behalf to make a change.

Ooh, I haven't done THIS in a long time XD
Warning: I've been known to ramble in these things... >.>

quote:

You're not stopping anything by not eating meat. Animals need to have their populations controlled.

Ha, no. See, since we BREED animals for our consumption, cattle, pigs, chickens, turkeys, etc., we can easily breed LESS of them to match demand. Unless you're talking about wild animals, the population control argument doesn't apply here. Farmers aren't going to breed animals they can't sell, so if demand goes down, less animals are born to meet that demand. So, by not eating animals, vegetarians/vegans are preventing more animals from living a life in those condictions. It's a boycott, basically; protesting the way animals are raised and killed for meat/eggs/dairy. And, since any form of widespread vegetarianism is probably going to take a while, the change will be gradual, so it's not too likely that we're going to have a bunch of loose cattle roaming around.

quote:

With vegans though I have to say that not drinking milk is crazy. Cows have to be milked or they could get sick. The same with goats.

Well, I've never been a milk-drinker to begin with - never liked the stuff - but I'm not vegan yet, either, though I plan on giving it a shot someday when I'm able.
Anyway, no one's advocating for letting cow's udders explode. Cow's milk was originally meant for...wait for it...calves! Dairy cows have to b impregnated every year or so, so they will keep producing milk, the resulting calves being taken away from their mother 24-48 hours after they are born, to be used as replacement for their mothers when they are considered "worn-out" and are sent to slaughter for hamburgers (the female calves), or as veal or beef cattle (the males). Again, if less people drink milk, less milk will be produced. Take goat's milk, for example; I don't know a whole lot about the industry, but I'm assuming that it's definitely not as popular as cow's milk, at least in the US. Now, say, goat's milk suddenly becomes extremely popular, like as part of a diet plan or something. They'd have to get more goats, right? The same would happen in the reverse; less milk demand, less cows. That simple.

quote:

And if you don't eat eggs either. That's just weird. Chickens are going to lay eggs no matter what. They are chickens and that's what they do! You are not hurting a chicken by eating an egg.

Yes, chickens do lay eggs no matter what. I know, my family has had chickens at our house in the country for years. The main problem, though, is how the chickens are TREATED to get the eggs. Battery cages, which I'm sure you've heard of, are undeniably cruel; crowded wire cages where 6-7 hens are packed into a space barely larger than a sheet of copier paper. "Cage-free" operations are scarcely better; instead of cages, they're kept in a huge, crowded warehouse, much like chickens raised for meat, except with places to lay eggs. Both ways of raising egg-laying hens perform debeaking, cutting off the end of the hens' beaks, which are very sensitive, so that they don't injure each other from pecking out of boredom and frustration.
And, when chickens are bred for egg-laying, the males, being useless to the industry because they don't lay eggs and are too small a breed to be worth anything to the meat industry, they are killed while they're still chicks, usually suffocated or ground up alive for fertilizer. This happens to millions of chicks a year, regardless of whether you pick standard or cage-free eggs.
Now, some people do keep their own chickens and eat their eggs, but some consider that to be unnecessary, and not consistent with the pro-animal rights position. That issue's kind of moot to me, though; if you want to keep chickens and treat them nicely and eat their unfertilized eggs every so often, I'm not gonna stop ya. *shrug*

quote:

If you can give me a good reason to be a vegan/vegetarian then sure go for it but all this stuff about saving the animals is dumb. they're gonna die anyway so why be vegan or vegetarian?

We're ALL going to die at some point. There's no reason why we should support animal cruelty and suffering and inflict that life on even more animals when we don't have to.

quote:

anyway, it doesn't matter because they shouldn't be feeding cattle corn to begin with. corn will kill a steer/cow w/o humans ever having to. they only feed them corn to fatten them up. and they only feed them corn for about a month before they get butchered. Its to improve the taste and amount of beef per lb. I personally would like to see our cattle fed something else if it means we'll save alot more corn. who cares what it tastes like anyway?

That's actually true. Corn, if fed for an extended period of time, will give a steer or cow liver disease that would most likely kill them. The book "Portrait of a Burger as a Young Calf" by Peter Lovenheim which has a lot of facts like that about how cattle are raised for meat.
As for taste, I know one friend of mine certainly cares about how it tastes, so that argument may not have any footing in some circles -_-'

quote:

You do know that if the beef industry downsizes that means that other industries will also have to downsize? this just causes a domino effect. We built up the beef industry over the years but it's a whole lot more difficult to just take it away now that this country has become so developed. just think what that would do to the US economy.

I'm no expert on the economy, but I think that if something like this were to happen gradually, which is most likely, there would be time for retraining, and people to move to other industries, or onto plant agriculture. Like with President Obama's plan to train a whole group of Americans to work in developing clean energy sources to eventually replace the dirty sources of energy. Will that be a change in the economy? Yes, but it doesn't have to be a negative one, or a jarringly drastic one.

quote:

cow worshipper....theres no point in trying to express solid proof to u. What purpose do they have alive? they just pollute streams lol that's about it

lol, dude, Wolfie never said she (he?) was Hindu, or worshipped cows in any way. What you did there was a wee bit pathetic; trying to bring down your debate opponent by name-calling. Nice. :P
Anyway, cattle may seem a bit odd in the animal kingdom, since they don't have any wild relatives, but actually, they once did; the auroch is believed to be the animal from which some, if not all, cattle are descended, and it was hunted to extinction in the 1800's in Europe. The main purpose they have now is for human use, because it was what they were bred for. Not saying that that justifies using them hwever we like, just telling you what their domesticated purpose was, since you don't appear to know... :/

wow. someone completely turned off their brain and didn't read anything in this thread.

cow worshipper....theres no point in trying to express solid proof to u. What purpose do they have alive? they just pollute streams lol that's about it

That just adds to my point because I don't want the cows eaten.

I'm not trying to disprove your point, this isn't a topic I'm very involved with I just found your quote a bit amusing.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
To raise one beef cow you need 10 acres of land to grow its food. All that food could go to starving people in, say India, instead of to our beef stock.

Isn't India predominantly Hindu? And don't Hindus consider the cow to be a sacred animal?

They would probably give all of the corn to cows in India before they would eat it themselves. haha

quote:

Originally posted by Phenix:
Well as a VIT . . . Vegan In Training, I don't agree that vegans are taking it too far obviously. Originally I wanted to become a Vegetarian for health reasons, I wanted to be healthier, and in researching it I found out about the injustices in the meat industry. I Met my Meet and I didn't like it. lol So that changed my entire view on being a vegetarian and I think helped me stay strong during the early withdrawal periods.lol And now I'm working towards going vegan because I realize that if a huge part of my reasoning for being a veghead is Animal Rights and not agreeing with the injustices in the industry then there is no way that I can continue to drink milk and eat eggs knowing that they experience the same horrors. And it's as simple as that. I love being a veghead though, I've learned so much and raised so much awareness within myself that I feel like a different person an I'm able to do the same with other people when the question my vegetarianism, even if they don't agree, I'm planting little seeds. lol So there. No I don't think Vegans are taking it to far . . . unless you mean those crazy red paint throwing harassers who give us sane vegheads a bad name.

thank you finnally someone who gets it

quote:

Okay, fine don't trust my book on being a vegetarian.

Wikipedia proves invaluable here. It reports that fifty percent of the US' water supply and eighty percent of its agricultural land is required for raising livestock, and further that ninety percent of the soy crop, eighty percent of the corn crop and seventy percent of the grain crop overall are used to feed livestock.

One of the reasons I find more persuasive (to join the defence of vegetarianism) is that livestock farming contributes an enormous amount to the total amount of methane being given off, a much more harmful greenhouse gas than CO2, as I'm sure everyone already knows. And it's cheaper, good for the food supply round the world and so on: 'According to the WorldWatch Institute, "Massive reductions in meat consumption in industrial nations will ease their health care burden while improving public health; declining livestock herds will take pressure off rangelands and grainlands, allowing the agricultural resource base to rejuvenate. As populations grow, lowering meat consumption worldwide will allow more efficient use of declining per capita land and water resources, while at the same time making grain more affordable to the world's chronically hungry.'

quote:

Not to mention, the crops fed to livestock isn't fit for human consumption.

This isn't true of a large percentage of the crops fed to animals, and I take your point that this would render a load of the grain grown surplus and useless. Except for: fuel, plastics, alcohol, medicine, etc.

Okay, fine don't trust my book on being a vegetarian. Because you know, published people generally have no idea what they're talking about apparently, but you two people with your limited knowledge obviously know so much more than the people who peer-reviewed this book.

I just don't see why you're so concerned with someone elses diet.

Plus being a vegetarien or even a pescatarien promotes healthier living and longevity. Is that a good enough reason for people to be veggies for you? That it is a healthier lifestyle than eating meat.

quote:

90%? really that doesn't sound right.

I'm pretty sure that is a bullshit amount. Considering that we also use corn for fuel, plastics, alcohol, medicine, etc.


Not to mention, the crops fed to livestock isn't fit for human consumption. You'd break your teeth trying to eat the food that's grown for them.

Yes, i know believe me. (I live with a vegetarian and hear that same argument all the time) the thing is that there already is an excess food supply especially in the US. Just because you eliminate cattle and produce more crops that doesn't mean you've ended hunger. the distirbution of the food supply is uneven and that is why there is hunger not because the cattle are taking up the farmland. And maybe if people would stop building suburbs and strip malls there would be more room yet but that's unlikely to happen either. sorry to get off track but i was trying to make the point that you can't blame the beef industry for lack of farmland.


90%? really that doesn't sound right. I read that it was more like 44%. anyway, it doesn't matter because they shouldn't be feeding cattle corn to begin with. corn will kill a steer/cow w/o humans ever having to. they only feed them corn to fatten them up. and they only feed them corn for about a month before they get butchered. Its to improve the taste and amount of beef per lb. I personally would like to see our cattle fed something else if it means we'll save alot more corn. who cares what it tastes like anyway?

You do know that if the beef industry downsizes that means that other industries will also have to downsize? this just causes a domino effect. We built up the beef industry over the years but it's a whole lot more difficult to just take it away now that this country has become so developed. just think what that would do to the US economy.


And, finally, yes i have seen meet your meat. It's awful. ugh. since you seem to know so much about how much grain goes to the beef, have you seen King Corn? It might do you some good to watch.

If less people eat meat the meat company isn't going to sell as much stuff as they normally do so that means down-sizing.

Also, if everyone in the world was a veggie then world hunger could essentially be stopped.

90% of the corn grown in the US goes to feed the animals we eat. That is a lot of food.

To raise one beef cow you need 10 acres of land to grow its food. All that food could go to starving people in, say India, instead of to our beef stock.

It's not so much about saving the animals, it's just making sure they aren't treated like they were never alive.

lol, have you ever seen meet your meat? blehhhh.

I'm not concerned with their diet. I'm concerned with the reasons people do it. If you can give me a good reason to be a vegan/vegetarian then sure go for it but all this stuff about saving the animals is dumb. they're gonna die anyway so why be vegan or vegetarian?

why are you so concerned about someone's diet?

nutcase.

I totally agree that vegans are taking it too far. Vegetarians are bad enough. I mean my own sister is a vegetarian but its nuts. You're not stopping anything by not eating meat. Animals need to have their populations controlled. With vegans though I have to say that not drinking milk is crazy. Cows have to be milked or they could get sick. The same with goats. And if you don't eat eggs either. That's just weird. Chickens are going to lay eggs no matter what. They are chickens and that's what they do! You are not hurting a chicken by eating an egg. So chill-lax!

I am a vegetarian also. And I dont think that vegans are taking it to far, it is apersonal choice and anyone can make that. You chose to be a vegetarian, some people think that is taking it to far. Do you think that is right? No it's not. That is what they believe in so I think that we should let them do what they want and you can do what you want. fair enough?

I agree...and then books ilke "Skinny Bitch" come out which is basically a vegan diet and honestly..you only live once. Eat the brownie. Drink a soda. I understand being healthy is obviously essential to a good lifestyle but my god! Relax with the vegan-ness of it all.

quote:

we can eat meat, but we are actually designed to eat vegetables, fruits and grains.

This is untrue. Our bodies evolved, not designed, to eat food from all sources. Vegetable, fruit, nuts, meat are all digestible to humans. This does not mean we can eat every vegetable, as some will make us very sick, where some animals can easily digest it. We can't eat every fruit either, same goes for nuts and meat.

The most healthy diet is one that includes food from all sources. This does include meat, fruit, and vegetables. In the american diet, we can stand to eat less meat and more vegetables. However, we should not be excluding meat. Meat is an excellent source of protein. Meat is easily digested, more readily than vegetables, but vegetables also are a excellent source of vitamins and minerals. Milk is a excellent source of calcium. Yes, you can get these things from eating tofu or what have you. Meat also contains vitamins and minerals, but to a lesser degree than vegetables.

A healthy diet can include meat.