Are there even any vegans in here defending their viewpoints, or are we all just saying the same things over and over again for no reason?

We have nobody to argue with.

This thread's dead. Let it rest.

I'm a vegetarian. I'm not vegan. I think that it is quite silly to say that we can't eat dairy products because its abusing the animal. Thats just plain crazy talk. I don't think its right to kill for our own good (unless you're dying or something), but if you aren't hurting the animal, then I see no harm in it.

I do, though, have issues with animal testing, dissections, and things like that. Super wrong. Interested in talking about that? I'm here. Drop me an IM if ya want LadyMcCrtny

Peace yo

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We're all smart idiots

What IS a smart idiot? lol Sorry just curious.

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Maybe they're smart not to be as smart as us.

Indeed. With great intelligence comes great stupidity. Oxymoronic, yes, but it's the story of the human race. We're all smart idiots.

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Indeed, many animals are quite intelligent, but not on the level of humans.

Maybe they're smart not to be as smart as us. I mean, our smartness leads us to um lets seee......nuclear bombs......machine guns (imagine cows with machine guns.....AAAAAhHHH!!!). I know that we invented beaucoup de good things too, but for the sake of my argument, I'm going to be really annoying and stubborn and not mention them.

Self-awareness, as defined by Merriam-Websters, is "an awareness of one's own personality or individuality". Show me an animal that refers to itself by "I" (naturally, I might add; trained talking parrots don't count) and I'll leave you be. Simple things such as recognizing a picture or image of oneself does not show self-awareness. It shows an ability to recognize certain traits in a picture, such as a pattern or the like. Paper wasps can do this. But are they self-aware?

And yes, I will cede that humans need protection to survive in harsh environments, but may I point out that animals naturally have the protection needed? Polar bears have thick, warm fur to survive in Arctic winters. Certain species of fish that swim the frigid waters of Antarctica have naturally-occuring antifreeze-like liquid in their bodies to keep them from freezing solid. Humans, having an odd lack of any such protection (such as long sharp teeth, claws, fur, tails, etc.) have learned to make do with artificial materials. Is there anything wrong with that? Of course not. It shows even more intelligence. People look at a chimp using a stick to get termites out of the ground and call the chimp "intelligent". Humans use tools, too, but on a greater level.

And for further reference, I do consider myself, in a way, "better" than someone without full mental and/or physical capacities. Now, I won't go around killing them all because they aren't perfect, but it is an insult to my intelligence to put me on a par as someone who can't even do simple math. The same goes for animals of any sort. Humans are animals, yes, but we've accomplished much, much more. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a great chasm between humans and other animals, thus, I have no qualms about consuming them. I highly doubt there are grizzly bears out there that shirk from eating moose, so why should humans do it?

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Indeed, many animals are quite intelligent, but not on the level of humans.

The thing about me is that I don't like to measure intelligence on the ability to read, write, do math, etc., because there are many humans that can't do that and are not capable. I don't put myself above severely brain damaged kids or adults because I know theory of relativity and they can't even comprehend it. An animal only knows what it needs to know for survival and quite possibly even more. Although it's mostly a theory, many animals have something called intuition which allows them to sense danger before it arrives. Most animals can predict an earthquake and run away before it comes, humans can not. Some animals can easily find their way home without a compass, humans can not. Animals didn't come up with theory of relativity because it is ultimately useless when it comes to survival. Theory of relativity, quantum mechanics, or string theory can't protect you in a bear attack, nor can it help you survive on a deserted island, unless for some reason you need to know the structure of time and gravity to make a fire. Our oil supply will not last forever, and when it's dried up, all this stuff would be nearly useless.

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See, each and every animal is suited to its own natural environment, while humans can live pretty much anywhere. This proves to me that humans are, in a word, "better" than other animals.

Well, I can just as easily say animals have to live in these different environments naked and if we did, we'd die. A human is built for warm environments. If they lived in artic regions without any clothes, they'd be dead. So we can live almost anywhere now, big deal. Some microscopic animals can survive extreme heat, cold, radiation, water pressure, the vacuum of space, and high altitudes. Like the water bear! I guess that little guy must be "better" than us.

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I'll be glad to prove that animals are not self-aware

Give me your definition of self-awareness. If you mean the ability to recognize it's self, some animals can do that.

Instead of arguing, let's all go raise tofuchickens into the sunset.

I agree with ilovebush. Animals are not human. Do they have the superior reasoning capabilities of a human? Indeed, many animals are quite intelligent, but not on the level of humans. Did a chicken come up with the theory of relativity? Was it a golden retriever that invented the light bulb? Did the fabled apple fall on Newton's pet rhino? No, no, and, no (partially because Newton didn't have a rhino). And don't tell me animals can't do that because they don't have opposable thumbs or what not, that just further proves my argument.

Now, I won't go the God way of having humans put over other animals because I don't believe God had much anything to do with the matter. However, humans have adapted to many different environments over the span of tens of thousands of years. Could a milk cow traverse the Amazon jungles? No, but a human can. Can a polar bear survive in the Sahara? No, but a human can. See, each and every animal is suited to its own natural environment, while humans can live pretty much anywhere. This proves to me that humans are, in a word, "better" than other animals.

I should bring the self-awareness issue in here, but I don't have the time right now. If anyone wants to argue about how humans are self-aware and other animals aren't, just ask me. I'll be glad to prove that animals are not self-aware.

Vegans take it too far.

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actually, go and read the story of Daniel in the Lion Pin.

I've read that story a thousand times. And I still don't beleive it, because it's just a story. I suggest you go look up an article about this relgious guy who jumped into a lion pin at a zoo somewhere and started shouting bible verses at them. And guess what happened to him? His a** got ate.

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but I have enough faith that I could come up with something to either save myself,

All the faith in the world couldn't save you from a charging male lion.

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Sorry but I'm not going to reply to any more of your post because I'm still laughing over

That tells me you're too ignorant to come up with anything better to refute what I said, because your knowledge is only limited to the bible. Prove me wrong.

EarthGoddess is right. And Ilovebush, why do we always have to drag religion into everything? Man, listen to me. Animals have brains, too. They are alive. You shouldn't be laughing over it. Yea, the slang was funny, but I don't think that's what you were laughing at. If only the tone of a voice could broadcast itself through the computer, then we would know what the person was actually saying. It's a pity really. I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them. Please don't take this the wrong way.

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If you were placed in a ring with a lion, without a gun or a knife, you wouldn't feel so superior, would you?

actually, go and read the story of Daniel in the Lion Pin. No, I wouldnt want to be with a lion, but I have enough faith that I could come up with something to either save myself, or obviously it was my time to die then...
Sorry but I'm not going to reply to any more of your post because I'm still laughing over

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animals are animals. They arent people.

Uh-oh. You're makin' me mad.

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animals are animals. They arent people.

Uh-oh. You're makin' me mad.

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God obviously but humans over animals, or we would be fearing our lives from the mad chickens!

Ignorance. Humans are not above animals and animals are not above humans. Each animal has their own special "strategy" for survival. Our "strategy" is the ability to reason and solve complex problems. While a bear has far bigger muscles than us, which allows them to hunt large animals, protect their cubs, fight, etc. Though the bear is stronger, it is not better than us and though we are smarter, we are no better than the bear. Your "intelligence", does not make you above anything. That's like me saying I'm above retarded kids. No one is above anyone. Once all of the Earth's oil is gone, civilization will die. Houses, cars, T.V., food, medicine. Too expensive to afford. We wouldn't be able to survive in the wild, because we've supressed and lost almost all of our animal instincts due to the materialistic world we live in now. So we'd pretty much die out. With that in mind, we're definetly no better than the animals. I, personally, embrace that side of me that you are trying so hard to kill off within yourself. I am an animal. It's not a big deal. I feel empty and unhappy when I don't satisfy my animalistic urges, like cuddling with a group of warm bodies. So, I'm obviously not as "human" as you think I should be.

Anyway, we'll never fear chickens based on the simple fact that we a bigger them. But, we (smart humans) do fear for our lives when we come face to face with animals like buffalo, bulls, elephants, tigers, lions, bears, crocodiles, sharks, moose, leopards, jellyfish, silver-back gorillas, boa constricters, and so on and so forth. Those animals will tear you up. If you were placed in a ring with a lion, without a gun or a knife, you wouldn't feel so superior, would you?

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then we would be like India, and have cows walking around in the roads, and that would be harmful to humans.

More ignorance. Those cows are really important to them, not just for religious reasons, but for economic reasons as well. They use cow manure and utilize it as a source of fuel.

So yeah, I suggest you do some reading and stop relying on the bible so such. You might actually learn something.

but see this is the thing - animals are animals. They arent people. God obviously but humans over animals, or we would be fearing our lives from the mad chickens! If we didnt kill animals, then we would be like India, and have cows walking around in the roads, and that would be harmful to humans. Sorry, but being a meat-eater, I just think its crazy not to eat meat (unless its for health reasons, not for the "bad treatment" of animals).

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What's wrong with eating meat? I've always wondered that.

Watch this www.meetyourmeat.com and this http://www.goveg.com/feat/meatrix.html and read some of the things here www.factoryfarming.com and you will see why.

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What I meant, was thinking too much about my food. When I look at a hamburger, I don't wonder about where it came from, what it's been through, etc. I just eat it. That's what it's for. It's food, not an object of contemplation.

I think a lot of health-conscious people contemplate where their food came from and what it has in it and such. With what the food industry's doing to food these days, you almost have to think at least a little about what you're putting in your body.

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Similarly, do you gaze at a penny and wonder about the exact conditions of it's minting? Do you think about whose hands it's touched, what pockets it's been in? Most people don't because they'd get freaked out about germs and whatnot.

But this is different from a food that goes into your body and can affect your health. Anyone can wash their hands after handling money.

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I believe I've said before that dairy cows, beef cattle, chickens, farmed fish, and other animals of that sort are specifically bred for human consumption.

That does not remove their capacity to feel any more than if a dog was specifically bred for consumption.

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Factory farms are merely more efficient than the old Ma and Pa "Patch of Heaven" sort where you had two old fogies and some brainless cowhands to get eggs, slaughter the fatted calf, and other such things. With a factory farm and meathouses, you need not worry about that. It's all mostly automated.

On family farms, the caretakers usually care about the animals. On factory farms, the animals are just seen as money making machines and they are treated likewise.

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Again, I understand that this is where the complaints stem from. Conditions in factory farms are indeed miserable, but here again, the animals have led no other life. They wouldn't know how to survive otherwise. To put it in perspective, imagine, if you will, that you have lived in a small four by four by five cubicle for most of your natural life. All of a sudden, you are let out of it and forced to live off the land. Could you do it? Perhaps, but physical hardship would most likely take you down before you got very far. This behavior has even been proven with lab rats. These rats have lived nearly their whole lives in a sanitary lab. Release them into the wild, and five minutes later a hawk has a nice dinner. They don't have the knowledge, as it is, that wild rats do regarding predators, food, shelter, etc. So too are dairy cattle and egg-laying chickens unused to the "outside world".

We (as in animal rights activists) are not saying that farmed animals or even lab rats ahould be released into the wild. (I must admit that was some dumb experiment [the one with the rats], the result was so obvious. Didn't they have anything better to do, like finding a cure for a disease?) Even farmed animals who are rescued are not set free, but most likely are put into a sanctuary type situation like Farm Sanctuary (www.farmsanctuary.org) and Animal Place (www.animalplace.org).

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As a completely random train of thought, how would all you animal rights people feel if scientists genetically engineered animals (such as cows and chickens) that didn't feel pain? Most vegetarians I know don't eat meat because the animals die in massively painful ways, such getting their throats slit while still conscious. So if the animal didn't feel that pain, that reason for abstaining from meat would get thrown out the window.

A odd question, but a good one. For one, I'm not even sure if that would be possible scientifically or would be in the best interests for the welfare of the animal. There was a news story a while back about a girl who was born with a rare genetic disorder that makes her unable to feel pain, here's the link to it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6379795/
It examines some of the problems with being unable to feel pain, like for instance a cow could run into a wall repeatedly and be unable to feel anything, but they would still get injured. And what good is a bruised carcass for steaks?
Also, quite a few people don't like the idea of genetically engineering our food, since we don't know what the effects could be on the human population over the long term (like allergies or etc.). If people are against genetically engineering plants, how do you think they would react to animals being genetically engineered?
I know that scientists are already working on cloning livestock, but the reason that isn't being implemented is because of cost. Imagine how much genetically engineering animals would cost! And family farmers would have an even harder time staying in business if this was implemented in the larger, corporate owned farms.
Even if they did do that, the health and environmental reasons would probably be still there.

And this is merely a debate, and trust me, I will not go jamaica on you. I just provide facts and opinions to back up or disprove what someone says. I'm glad this debate has been this sane so far.

On an unrelated note, I found a link on the whole "are animals self-aware?" thing we were talking about before (on another thread I think) : http://ar.vegnews.org/self_aware.html I thought you'd be interested in reading it.

What's wrong with eating meat? I've always wondered that.

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Aww.. Then you aren't truly selfish are you? Selfishness implies that their own well being is every to them and I assume health falls into the category of wellbeing.

I seem to have been beaten. But to clarify, I am selfish in the way that I put myself above animals, at least, I see it as selfish.

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More popularly called capital punishment.

Which is also something that I also don't approve of.

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Yes, I realize that meat can be bad for me. Do I care? No.

Aww.. Then you aren't truly selfish are you? Selfishness implies that their own well being is every to them and I assume health falls into the category of wellbeing.