Why aren't all environmentalists vegetarians? If they're ginna point their fingers at lumber companies for cutting down trees, maybe they should take a good look at the meat industry first. In order to sustain the amount of meat that we Americans consume on a daily basis, thousands of acres of trees in the Amazons are cut down and made into grazing areas. Do you see the connection?

If you're ginna hug a tree, then stop eating meat, damn it!

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Why is this? Is the lion a criminal for killing it's food?

Forgive me for coming across that way, but if you would refer to my original post... "destroy another being without compensation." There is no justice in nature, I believe that strongly. I'm usually the only one who says it in debate. I will say nothing more on this.

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If I believe in one thing in this world, it's justice. Equal punishment for equal crime. Mercy is a wonderful thing, and it is wonderful when someone expresses that, but if you intentionally end the life of another being, you can't plead ignorance; the life is still gone.

See, here's one of the things I take issue with. You seem to think that killing in nature is criminal. Why is this? Is the lion a criminal for killing it's food? No. In nature there exists no justice. Justice is something that is a human creation, and a beneficial one to us. I believe, and many other are with me in this, that our sense of "justice" and society are evolutionary in origin. It's beneficial for us to not kill eachother, and work, for the most part, in eachothers interests. But this means nothing outside of society. The right to life does not exist in nature.

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In general, I believe if someone wrongs you, you should have the right to choose to retaliate or not. That's the jist of it. And what do you believe on the matter?

Going back to the lion, the lion has every right to kill humans for food or protection. However, the human also has every right to kill the lion in self defense, or in defense of it's resources. Neither is in the wrong. It's just that humans are much, much better at killing and controling things.

That said, wanton killing is detrimental, and it might be a social crime, but it's not a natural one. Controled killing, or harvesting in the case of plants (e.g. trees), is entirely acceptable.

If I believe in one thing in this world, it's justice. Equal punishment for equal crime. Mercy is a wonderful thing, and it is wonderful when someone expresses that, but if you intentionally end the life of another being, you can't plead ignorance; the life is still gone. The wronged party in this case can't speak for themselves and demand justice or mercy; there would have to be either a middle person or someone closely related to the situation. In general, I believe if someone wrongs you, you should have the right to choose to retaliate or not. That's the jist of it. And what do you believe on the matter?

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Originally posted by Shade:
I shall discuss the opinion, but not the specific history that brought it about.

Well ok then, this is what I originally suggested. So, please elaborate why:

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If [you] had my extreme way, people would die every time they cut down a tree.

Why do you feel that destroying another being must always be met with compensation?

I shall discuss the opinion, but not the specific history that brought it about. Also, you put words into my mouth, stop it. If you'd like to discuss how I feel, stop presuming you know it already.

I love hippies. I grew up in a town full of hippies...and mexicans. There were a few mexican hippies.

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Originally posted by LoveTheRainbow:
Yay hippies!

More like boo hippies. They just wandered around for a while, didn't shower, and totally failed to change anything.

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I am not wishy washy. I have hard evidence and proof for all of my beliefs and emotions. I do not have to give it to the likes of you.

"The likes of you"? What someone who disagrees with you and wants to discuss your opinions? Again, you have a really provocative opinion and I'd love to discuss it. But if you refuse to talk about your opinion then what the hell is the point of saying it at all?

More people should think like you...

Back on topic...

Yay hippies!

My opinion is this: if people are not present to/can't defend themselves, it's always appreciated if someone else helps them out. I would do it to anyone who was important to me, and I appreciate it when people take the energy to do it as well.

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And LTR, my sincerest thanks to you for saying what I could not while I was away.

It's no problem. Honestly though I am glad you aren't mad at me for that.

Are you nit picking or do you really not know what I mean? Good lord. Here's an example. God exists. You don't believe it so you ask for proof. God exists is a fact. What you ask for is proof. Should I speak even more plainly?

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But ok, go on with your wishy-washy opinions, never test them against anything, and see how far that gets you.

I am not wishy washy. I have hard evidence and proof for all of my beliefs and emotions. I do not have to give it to the likes of you.

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Originally posted by Shade:
This is what I mean. Facts require proof. Opinions should not.

No, facts are proofs, opinions need to be backed up by facts and reasoning.

E.g.
Opinion: AIDS is bad.
Reasoning/proof: Millions of people die horrible deaths every year, also leaving millions of orphans. This epidemic aso puts a huge strain on regional economies in many poor areas of the world, perpetuating poverty and crime.

Opinion: AIDS is good.
Reasoning/proof: The AIDS epidemic is helping to curb massive overpopulation problems in some areas, and at the same time leading medical research and understanding of the human body and modern viruses.

You then compare the facts and decide if the opinions are bullshit or acceptable. But ok, go on with your wishy-washy opinions, never test them against anything, and see how far that gets you.

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But you never stated any facts

This is what I mean. Facts require proof. Opinions should not.

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I.e. some scientist got real drunk and had a 'dicussion' with a pot plant.
One day some one will 'scientifically prove' that clouds are green.

It truly has. I can source the scientists and the dates and their experiments if you'd like. Get your hands on a science journal from that year and learn some. It would be good for your intolerance problem.

And LTR, my sincerest thanks to you for saying what I could not while I was away.

Okay, it is more than just the meat. What do tree huggers wipe their butts with? I bet it isn't recycled or plastic.

Also, you could be a vegan treehugger and still promote the destruction trees, habitat, environment, etc. If you buy anything at a store you are almost certainly promoting the destruction of something important. You might buy all organic non-animal products, however you are still destroying that which a treehugger professes to care about so much. How did that food get there? Just think about that. Then think about where that food was grown. No family farm.

In fact, it is almost impossible for a treehugger to live according to their own philosophy unless they are entirely self-sufficient. They would have to grow their own food and make their own clothes out of cloth that they also made. It is a complex issue that doesn't quite have an end, I think.

True dat! Do they know what those animals go through? Damn hippies!

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Its been scienticifally proven that plants feel pain

I.e. some scientist got real drunk and had a 'dicussion' with a pot plant.
One day some one will 'scientifically prove' that clouds are green.

Maybe we compare the pain of an animals sh~tty life and death, with some tree which gets it sweet but suffers an abrubt death and doesn't even have any nerves.

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Two, he doesn't need to go into whatever experience it was that formed his opinion, just his reasoning behind it. "Ie. The experience made me realize that..."

Whatever the experience was made him realize that he has, "a sincere distaste for people who feel they can destroy another being without compensation."

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Three, an opinion is not "all anyone needs to know". The rationale behind the opinion is really the meat of the discussion.

All you need to know is what someone is willing to share. A disussion can only take place if someone is willing to discuss.

I'm done discussing this. He said he didn't want to share and you should respect that.

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Originally posted by LoveTheRainbow:

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What's the point of stating your opinion if you don't share the REASONING with everyone?

Because clearly the reason is personal. Obviously he doesn't feel a need to persuade you nor does he want to share. He is stating his opinion and that is all anyone needs to know. Stop pestering him.

One, his opinion was an exceptional one that could really use some sort of explainlation.
Two, he doesn't need to go into whatever experience it was that formed his opinion, just his reasoning behind it. "Ie. The experience made me realize that..."
Three, an opinion is not "all anyone needs to know". The rationale behind the opinion is really the meat of the discussion. If a dicussion is just a series of unsupported and bland opinions, the thread falls flat.

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What's the point of stating your opinion if you don't share the REASONING with everyone?

Because clearly the reason is personal. Obviously he doesn't feel a need to persuade you nor does he want to share. He is stating his opinion and that is all anyone needs to know. Stop pestering him.

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Originally posted by Shade:
No. You're not going to bait me into sharing something like that. That's ridiculous. I'm sorry now I have to have proof for my feelings in addition to facts.

But you never stated any facts
Nobody's baiting anyone into anything. What's the point of stating your opinion if you don't share the REASONING with everyone? That's ultimately what matters.