quote:

Not like people do. At least when a monkey or some other animal does something like that, they have a good reason for it; their survival.

quote:

Slewinca:

quote:
People lie and deceive, animals don't.

Yes they do.

quote:

Then what about all variable levels of awareness, and what about how some animals really can't tell whats going on at all?

quote:

Personal Purity vs. Effective Advocacy

The number one thing that we do wrong—and I am speaking from many years of doing this myself—is that we place personal purity ahead of being as effective as possible for animals. We lose sight of the fact that veganism is not an end in and of itself but rather a means of ending cruelty to animals. Being vegan is not about being perfect and causing no cruelty at all—it’s about decreasing suffering as effectively as possible.

We all know this, but it bears repeating: At some level, everything we consume harms some animals. Every non-organic thing we eat involves pesticides that kill birds and other small animals. Organic foods use animal fertilizer. Harvesting vegan foods kills and displaces animals. Bike tires and even “vegan” shoes contain some small amount of animal product. We could all go out into the woods and live on nuts and berries as “level 10 vegans,” but ultimately, that would be far less effective than living where we could influence others to adopt a vegan diet as well.

Animals don’t need your purity, or else it would make sense to go live in a cabin in the woods, causing as little harm as possible. What the animals need is your advocacy—and they need for it to be as effective and influential as possible. Ultimately, veganism can’t just be about us, or it will become just one more narcissistic cultural fad. Veganism must be about helping animals.

So the issue of personal purity becomes one of basic math: Adopting a vegan diet means you’re not supporting the torment and slaughter of dozens of animals every single year. Helping just one more person to go vegan will save twice as many animals. But the reverse is also true: If you do something that prevents another person from adopting a vegan diet, if your example puts up a barrier where you might have built a bridge, that hurts animals—so then it becomes anti-vegan, if vegan means helping animals.

We all know that the number one reason why people don’t go vegan is that they don’t think it’s convenient enough, and we all know people whose reason for not going vegan is that they “can’t” give up cheese or ice cream. But instead of making it easier for them to help animals, we often make it more difficult. Instead of encouraging them to stop eating all other animal products besides cheese or ice cream, we preach to them about the oppression of dairy cows. Then we go on about how we don’t eat sugar or a veggie burger because of the bun, even though a tiny bit of butter flavor in a bun supports significantly less suffering than eating any non-organic fruit or vegetable, or using a plastic bottle, or about 100 other things that most of us do. Our fanatical obsession with ingredients not only obscures the animals’ suffering—which was virtually non-existent for that tiny modicum of ingredient—but nearly guarantees that those around us are not going to make any change at all. So, we’ve preserved our personal purity, but we’ve hurt animals—and that’s anti-vegan.

Always, always, always remember: Veganism isn’t a dogma. Veganism is about stopping suffering. Let me say that again, as a 17-year vegan: Veganism is not a list of ingredients or a set of rules. Being vegan is about doing our best to help animals. So it requires thought, not a checklist.

So if you’re at a holiday party with meat-eaters and you’re talking about how you can’t eat the bread because you don’t know what’s in it, or you’re at a restaurant and there’s a veggie burger on the menu but you give the server the third degree about the ingredients or about how it was cooked, you are forgetting the essence of being vegan. You’ve just made veganism seem difficult, throwing up barriers to the others at the table who might have otherwise considered the plight of animals. In this situation, others are unlikely to want to ask about your diet, and they’re even less likely to think of it as something they might consider. Look at the big picture and you’ll see that your pursuit of purity in that instance does significantly more harm to animals than consuming that tiny bit of animal product! Remember that if just one of those people follows your example, you can save hundreds of animals! And if just one of them might have but decides not to because of your example, the reverse is true: You are hurting animals.

If you’re worried about what you’re going to eat in a restaurant, call ahead and figure out what meets your standards, and then order it with gusto. If you’re worried about what you’re going to eat at the office party, get on the catering committee or just bring along some great vegan food. But please, never, never make it seem like being concerned about animal suffering is a chore, because, of course, it’s not.

http://www.goveg.com/active/effective-3.html

quote:

It’s almost impossible to avoid using all animal products; if you’re still causing animal suffering without realizing it, what’s the point?

It is impossible to live your life without causing some harm; we’ve all accidentally stepped on ants or breathed in gnats, but that doesn’t mean we should intentionally cause unnecessary harm. Just because you might accidentally hit someone with your car is no reason to run someone over on purpose.

http://www.askcarla.com/answers.asp?QuestionandanswerID=290

quote:

The only meat I still eat is fish. Can fish feel pain?

Research has shown that indeed they can. According to Dr. Donald Bloom, animal welfare advisor to the British government, "Anatomically, physiologically, and biologically, the pain system in fish is virtually the same as in birds and mammals." Fish have fully developed brains and nervous systems and very sensitive mouths. Fish use their tongues and mouths as humans might use their hands—to catch or gather food, build nests, and even hide their offspring from danger. Fish also experience fear. An Australian study found that when fish are chased, confined, or otherwise threatened, they react as humans do to stress: with increased heart and breathing rates and a burst of adrenalin. http://www.askcarla.com/answers.asp?QuestionandanswerID=335

quote:

“What about plants?”

There is currently no reason to believe that plants experience pain because they are devoid of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains. It is theorized that animals are able to feel pain so that they can use it for self-protection purposes. For example, if you touch something hot and feel pain, you will learn from the pain that you should not touch that item in the future. Since plants cannot move from place to place and do not need to learn to avoid certain things, this sensation would be superfluous. From a physiological standpoint, plants are completely different from mammals. Unlike animals’ body parts, many perennial plants, fruits, and vegetables can be harvested over and over again without dying.

If you are concerned about the impact of vegetable agriculture on the environment, you should know that a vegetarian diet is better for the environment than a meat-based one, since the vast majority of grains and legumes raised today are used as feed for cattle. Rather than eating animals, such as cows, who must consume 16 pounds of vegetation in order to convert them into 1 pound of flesh, you can save many more plants’ lives (and destroy less land) by eating vegetables directly.

http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp

quote:

Originally posted by christiansoldier92:
What I'm saying is that you can live without causing cruelty to animals by eating vegetarian products.

quote:

And I don't recall that this was a forum about PLANT rights- besides, we don't nexessarily eat the plant- its the fruit that it bears.

quote:

Its not different. A kill is a kill is a kill.

quote:

Besides, you can survive without meat now. Ever heard of veggie burgers? TVP? Mushrooms? Eggplant?

Now THAT'S a varied diet...

quote:

Originally posted by riskbreaker86:
I agree on animal rights, they should have rights, rights not to be tortured or mistreated, but when it comes to eating them...great, afterall they'd eat us to survive if needed, and humans need a varied diet....I have no problem with eating them, but how a cow is slaughtered is different to the torture of a dog for fun, or maltreatment of a horse...i read a story in a paper here(UK) about how the fire brigade was called out to rescue a hamster lost in a drain....this is ridiculous,

another story i read was a huge investigation that had been done, a report into whether cows have feelings or not! who cares! cows have a good life, then they make the ultimate sacrifice....anyway its not all doom and gloom, not only do they provide a good food source, they give us milk, which in turn gives us cheese and other dairy products. Also their upkeep needs work, which provides jobs, jobs mean people can survive...so do you rate an animals life higher than a human? or equally? i know what id choose. Also, the Bull, who gets to impregenate hundreds of cows is a huge bennefitter of the cow industry.... (if your Hindu please replace cow with chicken and bull with rooster)

quote:

However, I don't think we should used animals for sports like hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
Gah! I don't care anymore!

quote:

You sound like a ******* Buddhist.

quote:

If you insist on saying that, I'll have to introduce you to my extended family, the Post-Its. They're people too, you know.

quote:

I thought you were whining about the supposed mistreatment of food animals. Wild animals, on the other hand, aren't property, so I can't in good conscience say that they deserve to die. Unless they have rabies. Or are overly agressive. Or bite me on the hand repeated times with no apparent reason.

quote:

And as for the different reality: the only reality I know is the one I'm in. I don't know what reality you're in, though.

quote:

I didn't say that. I was using it as an example.

quote:

I thought you said animals and humans were equal. It doesn't seem that way to me from that statement.

quote:

People lie and deceive, animals don't.

quote:

Then how do you that explain that when after all, it does say "all men are created equal"?

quote:

animals don't.

quote:

yes I am aware of the pesticide-exposure problem, but I don't think that is as bad as the things I've listed above

quote:

One, it happens. Two, doesn't the Constitution say something along the lines of, "All men are created equal"? By default, Americans (people born in America, whether citizens or not) have all the basic human rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, etc.) from the get-go. There's no document that says the same for animals.

quote:

Indeed. But watch what your priorities are. I've seen animal rights activists rush to the aid of a stray cat with rabies that would bite and infect them in a minute, yet completely ignore the homeless and helpless on the side of the road who are only looking for a few cents to buy some food and a cardboard box. I guess that shows who's worth more.

quote:

I assume we're talking animal processing plants? Right. Do I need to start talking about how simple vegetable farming can violate human rights? I didn't think so. Cheap migrant labor isn't exclusive to the meatpacking industry, my dear. But even a job such as that is better than no job at all, am I right?

quote:

One only needs to see how gorillas can learn ASL to realize that. But did Koko ever ask for the rights of a human being? Did she ever do more than ask for things and have simple conversations with her trainers? She had the chance.

quote:

“Animals don’t reason, don’t understand rights, and don’t always respect our rights, so why should we apply our ideas of morality to them?”

An animal’s inability to understand and adhere to our rules is as irrelevant as a child’s or a person with a developmental disability’s inability to do so. Animals are not always able to choose to change their behaviors, but adult human beings have the intelligence and ability to choose between behaviors that hurt others and behaviors that do not hurt others. When given the choice, it makes sense to choose compassion.