Sometimes I get confused when there are people who know about God and then they just turn away. It is nothing aganist them but I can feel God and I know Jesus is coming back. Everyone has done wrong and fall short in the glory of God, but that is why Jesus died. He died for you and your sins. He will take them away and throw them out like you throw out the trash every week. So why don't other people get it too? Why turn away when God is so close?

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Also, on the infinite nature of the universe: The space-time continuium as we know it was created about 14.5 billion years ago. However, the pre-existing laws of the universe are of an undetermined age and may be infinite. Therefore the universe is both infinite AND finite, depending on what specific part we're talking about.

There was not a universe more than 14.5 billion years ago so regardless of whether or not the laws of the universe are older, life could not begin to attempt to form until it had something to form on.

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And in any case, the basic laws behind the universe are far more simple than a clockwork watch.

But the life that we see in the universe is far more complex.

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I don't even know if you're TRYING to get it.

I am, trust me, I am.

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Originally posted by Nephilem:

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You're not getting it.

Do you really think that people will believe that a watch will form if you throw all the components in a Jar and shake it?

Physicists would certainly agree.

And in any case, the basic laws behind the universe are far more simple than a clockwork watch.

Also, on the infinite nature of the universe: The space-time continuium as we know it was created about 14.5 billion years ago. However, the pre-existing laws of the universe are of an undetermined age and may be infinite. Therefore the universe is both infinite AND finite, depending on what specific part we're talking about.

But I'm with clpo here, you're just not getting it. I don't even know if you're TRYING to get it.

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You're not getting it.

Do you really think that people will believe that a watch will form if you throw all the components in a Jar and shake it?

You're not getting it. And you never will. Just let it drop before the rest of us completely lose our hair trying to explain it. Again. And again.

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If you think this then you don't understand the concept of infinity. It IS possible that all the pieces could bounce at exactly the right angles and forces to fly together and form a watch. Possible, just not probable. Since it IS possible, however, given an infinite amount of time it WILL happen. It might take you 10 bilion years but it WILL happen.

But as you state the universe is not infinite, it is about 13 billion years old. There is a big difference. Also you are never going to form a watch my throwing the peaces together it is impossible. It is more complex them having the pieces go in the right place.
Also take a position either the universe is infinitely old or it has finite age it can’t be both.

I personally thought the monkeys and typewriters were a joke, but please don't hurt the monkeys when you shake the jar

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Originally posted by Nephilem:

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Anything can come about through random chance. It just takes an inordinately long time. My parenthetical expression was talking more about putting watch components together in a jar and shaking them for a couple billion years.

What type of Jar do you have? A magical One? All that would happen is that you would break all the little pieces, and I don’t care how many times you tried and I don’t care how long you stay at it.
Let’s look at one out of many problems. Many of the pieces are held together with adhesives. If you just threw all the components in the adhesives would get on everything and thus the watch would not work. So you go ahead and try that but I already know the outcome, no watch. Also if you can believe that a watch can form by being shaken in a jar, I would think that you could believe anything.

If you think this then you don't understand the concept of infinity. It IS possible that all the pieces could bounce at exactly the right angles and forces to fly together and form a watch. Possible, just not probable. Since it IS possible, however, given an infinite amount of time it WILL happen. It might take you 10 bilion years but it WILL happen.

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An infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of typewriters .....

By that I assume you are making reference to the idea that the universe is infinitely old. However this idea has been shown to be false. The universe has a finite age (The universe is about 13 billion years old) and is not infinite.

The monkey-typwriter analogy is used to help people envision the concept of what can happen over very long periods of time. Clpo wasn't saying that the universe was infinite.

I'm trying to follow these conversations, but... ah, why are we talking about monkeys and typewriters?

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What type of Jar do you have? A magical One? All that would happen is that you would break all the little pieces, and I don’t care how many times you tried and I don’t care how long you stay at it.

I've already decided the watch metaphor is a poor one. You're just elaborating on why.

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Anything can come about through random chance. It just takes an inordinately long time. My parenthetical expression was talking more about putting watch components together in a jar and shaking them for a couple billion years.

What type of Jar do you have? A magical One? All that would happen is that you would break all the little pieces, and I don’t care how many times you tried and I don’t care how long you stay at it.
Let’s look at one out of many problems. Many of the pieces are held together with adhesives. If you just threw all the components in the adhesives would get on everything and thus the watch would not work. So you go ahead and try that but I already know the outcome, no watch. Also if you can believe that a watch can form by being shaken in a jar, I would think that you could believe anything.

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An infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of typewriters .....

By that I assume you are making reference to the idea that the universe is infinitely old. However this idea has been shown to be false. The universe has a finite age (The universe is about 13 billion years old) and is not infinite.

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YV I am thnking about changing it anyway because it is getting boring.

Oh no. I wasn't asking you to change it. I was just curious if you knew about that. No worries. Everyone has the right to have what they like(as long is it doesn't break the Rules of Play) on their avatar.

YV I am thnking about changing it anyway because it is getting boring.
I have decided that watches will from now be made by a machine and then we can stop talking about the watch and talk about something else like......which is the best comparison to the universe?

I'll go first: a little kid doing a project of the universe with the color balls on sticks in a big box(maybe someone else can be a little more created, this could be a fun game!)

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utting watch components together in a jar and shaking them for a couple billion years.

An infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of typewriters .....

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First you say that a watch can arise through random chance and then you state a problem with that idea. A watch can’t form through random chance.

Anything can come about through random chance. It just takes an inordinately long time. My parenthetical expression was talking more about putting watch components together in a jar and shaking them for a couple billion years. Watches can't come about randomly in nature, but they could come about in other ways given the right circumstances.

Basically, I was pointing out that the watch metaphor is not the best comparison to the universe, since all parts of the universe came about naturally. Watches, on the other hand, have non-natural parts, thus they must have designers (who could make the non-natural components). The universe has no such constraint.

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Ignorant of what? If we liken your watch to the universe, would you say that someone who looks at it and doesn't see a designer is just as ignorant?

Not really because the universe is more complicated.

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But that quote doesnt tell us to test things at all; all it does is tell us that God may leave us to test us, not we to test him.

I will run a search when I have time and get more verses.

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I meant that I may accept that the Bible contains spiritual truth, as do all religious books equally, but gives us no accurate scientific or historical information.

But the bible does have correct scientific and definitely correct historical information. There are many examples of events and peoples in the bible that have been confirmed through historical research.

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to say that since an object as complicated as a watch cannot come about by chance (even though, technically, it can)

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And how exactly does nature cleave quartz crystals into small enough slivers?

I would say that you are contradicting yourself. First you say that a watch can arise through random chance and then you state a problem with that idea. A watch can’t form through random chance.

Um...I'm not angry. I was merely pointing it out. :P

I know that the symbol was designed in 1958, by Gerald Holtom and that the long line meant N(uclear) and the two small ones were D(isarmament) in semaphore letters.

I have read in other places about it having multiple meanings, and that even Anton LaVey used it. But it really doesn't matter. I was just letting her know about that.

The peace sign is not an upside down cross that was used to hang Jesus. If you will note, the arms that are claimed to be broken, come from the middle of the cross, not from closer to either side, as is normal with a cross of that nature. It looks like it's close to the bottom, because the gaps there are smaller; a common illusion. What this is, is a broken cross, yes, but a broken equal armed cross. If anyone should be angry, it should be the Native Americans or the pagans. Not the Christians.

Aright, LDG. Just thought you'd want to know your sign mocks the death of Jesus, since you're always talking about it. But if you don't care, then I'll rest my case.

I like peace and I get the watch metaphor but I don't know why he picked a watch instead of something else but it doesn't matter. I am too tired to care about much and I didn't know about the many meanings of the peace sign and I don't care too much maybe I will later who knows...