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By the way, everytime I've went back to the Christian religion, I've felt more miserable than when I'm not in the Christian religion. Why is that?

Perhaps because it involves much struggle? Then again...life IS struggle. I don't know Ikki.

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Job never said anything bad about God.

Correct. However, according to my notes from Intro to the Bible (I'm sorry, I don't have time to read the entire book of Job right now), Job DID question God. He questioned God's justice. And God never answered him.

By the way, everytime I've went back to the Christian religion, I've felt more miserable than when I'm not in the Christian religion. Why is that?

quote:

Originally posted by Shade:

Just admit that the language is flawed. That question can be taken so many ways. It was also implied, intentionally or not, that it applied to you or someone else. So just let it go.

You apparently still don't get it. Re-read my post. Notice the IF. This had nothing to do with flaws in the language. Just admit that for once you were wrong.

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your entire rant is very general, subjective, and misinformed.

that is very general, why don't you reply to one of his actual remarks?

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When you don't have God it is like you have a false sense of happiness because you are happy but you are still looking for more

wow... I thought we already went over this. Who are you to judge? You actually DO believe in God so how do you know if it's a FALSE sense of happiness. You make me NOT want to believe in God when you say shit like that. Oh I said shit! oh and you know...we could turn this completely around on you.

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Why do you want to be selfish?

why is his not believing in God selfish? what the fuck are you talking about?

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You have a choice

yet you tell people that they should believe in God or will go to hell, you tell people that don't believe in God that they have a false sense of happiness, the list could go on.

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you already bore the sins of your parents when you are born

why if it's my parents, not me?explain the logic in that.

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Christianity is not a religion because a religion is a way to try to get to God and Christianity is the way...but it is not a tiranny.

I must confess that this sentence confused me a little; Christianity is not a religion because?

And I believe that you are all arguing about the nature of Christianity being a tyranny, which I believe is technically true, as the definition is: a government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power. In fact, Christianity may be the only total tyranny, in the essential meaning of the word, throughout space and time.

quote:

Lee strobel
A former atheist and hard-bitten journalist with The Chicago Tribune, in 1980 Lee Strobel began an investigation that would alter the course of his life forever. Observing the transformation in his wife following her conversion to Christianity, he began exploring the evidence supporting the truthfulness of the Christian faith. What he discovered eventually led to his own commitment to Christ in 1981.

The Case for Christ

excellent book

I prefer "The Case for a Creator" though it directly takes on all the questions folks have with Evolution and ID and etc ad naseum.

Brehon:

quote:

But there is no satisfactoy reasoning for why Yahweh loves us; we do not love everything that we create, and why should a being who created the vast immensity of the universe love us so much, and not other beings?

Dunno. I'm not God.

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And through various natural theology arguments it is possbile to conclude that God is not all loving. And if he is all loving then he must abandon some of the other qualities that make him the Yahweh of the Bible.

The bible has proven his love for one thing, constantly: the Israelites. He had no love for the pagan ways of any of the other humans he didn't create. These Israelites, he created, he nurtured and helped grow. Only when Jesus came did his song change, and include all of humanity.

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However, I admire you for taking on, what, five people?

Me? I take on everyone. People who agree with me never completely agree with me.


Nephilim:

Cool, thanks for posting the authors. I don't need to be convinced of the existance of God, but the names are useful for others here. But if I have extra time on my hands, I'll glance their way.


Maya:

quote:

even so, my statement says "Especially if it really doesn't make a difference in your life, why should you?", where am I saying it doesn't make a difference in people's lives or in the world? It says: if it doesn't make a difference why should you believe, notice the IF.

Just admit that the language is flawed. That question can be taken so many ways. It was also implied, intentionally or not, that it applied to you or someone else. So just let it go.

quote:

LOL. Riiiiight...I forgot...

Just because much of spirituality is an alien concept to you does not mean you can make fun out of those who actually believe it, Maya.


DrummerLady:

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Why do you want to be selfish?

It's human nature to be selfish. Deal with it.

When you don't have God it is like you have a false sense of happiness because you are happy but you are still looking for more.

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But what about what I want? What if I don't want to be close to God (assuming I can even get past my skepticism to believe in him)?

Why do you want to be selfish? God has a time and a place for everything. Your time will come.

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None of these are religions, when one is not allowed to choose what to believe one does not follow a religion, he follow's tiranny

Christianity is not a religion because a religion is a way to try to get to God and Christianity is the way...but it is not a tiranny. You have a choice that is why there is free will. God wants you to want to follow Him, but only non-sinners can go to heaven and you already bore the sins of your parents when you are born unless your parents were compeltly prefect and then you have to be in your life. It is impossible. So God sent Jesus to die on the cross for your sins. But if you don't believe then Jesus can't take your sins. Then you go to hell. That is a choice to go to hell or not. It would be trianny if God didn't let you choose to be a believer and go to heaven or be a non-believer and go to hell.

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This made me think of Job. God gave him Hell, Job didn't complain. Finally Job questioned, and God yelled at him. Even though he received things again at the end of the book. he still went through Hell, losing his family, his livestock, his everything. That seems somewhat evil for God to do just because. (Yes, I know the devil had a hand in it to, but God gave him the go ahead.)

Job never questioned God that is way he is so amazing. The devil took away his wealth, children, and health. His friends and wife cursed God for it but not Job he instead said this:
Job prophesied about the Redeemer and of the future resurrection: I know that my Redeemer liveth and on the last day He shall raise from the dust this my corrupted skin, and in my flesh I shall see God. I shall see Him myself; mine eyes, and not the eyes of another, shall behold Him (Job 19:25-27, Septuagint).
Then God rewarded him again...he got more than he had to begin with and he lived another 140 years. Job never said anything bad about God.

Job sure had faith. I don't know if I would still have faith in God if all that happened to me.

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(God will never do something that is ultimately evil to His people),

This made me think of Job. God gave him Hell, Job didn't complain. Finally Job questioned, and God yelled at him. Even though he received things again at the end of the book. he still went through Hell, losing his family, his livestock, his everything. That seems somewhat evil for God to do just because. (Yes, I know the devil had a hand in it to, but God gave him the go ahead.)

Speed.. your entire rant is very general, subjective, and misinformed.

It doesn't take much discipline to not speak of what you do not know.

Your views and beliefs of God are no less fabricated, nor unprecedented as anyone else's by that standard.

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
Because God is in the future! And the present! And everywhere at every time!

LOL. Riiiiight...I forgot...

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc...
None of these are religions, when one is not allowed to choose what to believe one does not follow a religion, he follow's tiranny.
According to Christianity I can't choose not to be a christian, because if I do I will go to hell, and According to Islam, if I where to renegate from Mahoma I deserve death for being an infidel.

All of you adore tiranny, as none of you are allowed to choose. That's why it's not possible to reason with most of you, because the concept of choosing faith is completely alien. You believe faith should be absolute, and whilst Christians don't advocate some of the more radical positions of Islam, your whole beleif suystem ultimately contradicts free will, as according to your precepts we are not even allowed to make the decision you deem most important of all, to have faith.

The diference between atheists and the rest of you is that we do not hold pre conceived perceptions of the universe as absolute. We know that we don't know, thus we readily explore, but faith is contradictory to exploration and search of knowledge, as it's own nature is contrary to questioning that which concordant religious doctrine deems absolute. Religion only progresses when it is obligated to, 600 years ago the Earth was factually flat. Remember that.

God wants to be in a relationship with us that is above all others.

If you love someone, you tell them how you feel, the ugly and the bad, and when the LORD does something that you recognize as good (God will never do something that is ultimately evil to His people), it would be wrong not to give God the thanks he deserves.

Because God is in the future! And the present! And everywhere at every time!

Or so I'm told. That's essentially the answer I got on my free will thread.

quote:

Originally posted by lildrummergirl9:
We need to worship because eit brings you closer to Him. God wants to delevop a relationship with you and He wants you to follow Him and serve Him.

But what about what I want? What if I don't want to be close to God (assuming I can even get past my skepticism to believe in him)?

Nephilem, so how does God KNOW then what's going to happen?

So are you saying the "god" of the universe doesn't have control?

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"everything" happens for a reason, it's part of God's plan.

Actually the Bible does not teach that everything is part of Gods plan. God knows everything that will happen, but he does not make everything Happen. God does have a plan for the salvation of Mankind, but he does not micro-manage everybody’s lives.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade:
Maya, I did read everything you said. I read "you" as general, almost always. Maybe it's the language's flaw, not mine?

even so, my statement says "Especially if it really doesn't make a difference in your life, why should you?", where am I saying it doesn't make a difference in people's lives or in the world? It says: if it doesn't make a difference why should you believe, notice the IF.

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There is a false sense of happiness and being if you don't believe in God

excuse me? I could just as well say there's a false sense of happiness and security if you believe in God, because God will solve all your problems, you will go to Heaven, and "everything" happens for a reason, it's part of God's plan. But since I don't believe in God, it is not my place to say that.

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If these are books, please post the authors.

Hugh Ross, and here are his credentials.
http://www.reasons.org/about/staff/ross.shtml

The Creator and the Cosmos
The Genesis Question
Creation as a science
The Finger print of God
Beyond the Cosmos


Fazale Rana and Hugh Ross,
see above for Hugh Ross’s credentials. And here are Fazale Rana’s credentials. http://www.reasons.org/about/biographies.shtml#fazale_rana

Origins of life
Without a doubt



Michael Behe, http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?comma...&id=31&isFellow=true
Darwin’s Black Box


Lee strobel
A former atheist and hard-bitten journalist with The Chicago Tribune, in 1980 Lee Strobel began an investigation that would alter the course of his life forever. Observing the transformation in his wife following her conversion to Christianity, he began exploring the evidence supporting the truthfulness of the Christian faith. What he discovered eventually led to his own commitment to Christ in 1981.

The Case for Christ

Peter ward and don Brownlee.
http://www.astro.washington.edu/rareearth/abouttheauthors.html
Rare Earth

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We need to believe because that is the way God made us. There is a false sense of happiness and being if you don't believe in God or you search and search for a religion when you don't need a religion you need a faith.

We need to worship because eit brings you closer to Him. God wants to delevop a relationship with you and He wants you to follow Him and serve Him.

Isn't this just one big circular argument? We need to believe because God made us is just another way of saying that God created us to be sycophants. And then the whole false sense of happiness line is ridiculous. Any religion entails faith, so your claim that people must search for 'faith' not a religion is not really making much sense.

On the worship issue: Why do we need to become closer to God? He created us, and indeed, is supposedly with us at every possible moment in time; you cannot get much closer. The truth is that you can only have a relationship with something once you know it (true love is only found among equals); the epistemic distance between us and God is so impossibly vast that this is impossible. We cannot love God because he is beyond us in every feasible way.

Shade:

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Jesus willingly died for every human here. He is part of Yahweh, and as part of him, loves you. The logic is all there if you try to understand.

But there is no satisfactoy reasoning for why Yahweh loves us; we do not love everything that we create,