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Registered: March 08, 2004
Posts: 1686
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quote: Originally posted by Tabb:
Aguagon, i think that you missed hubbabaloo point. she is saying, correct me if i'm wrong, that how can you have a standard of what "good" and "evil" is if you don't have something to compare it to.
Did I not address this exact issue? "Good" and "evil" are mere words that convey extremely subjective concepts. Over a long period of time, what society has deemed productive and conducive to pleasant emotions has become "good", while what society has deemed harmful and conducive to unpleasant emotions has become "evil." It's as simple as that. Friendly gestures create positive feelings while rape creates negative feelings whether God exists or not. From the secular viewpoint, it was then man who took these standards of "good" and "evil" and invented "God" to better express them.
And then, as the books were told, Fina replied: "A can of worms, my dear friend? What has this to do with reason?"
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Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6044
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But who is to say that God is good and Satan evil? Couldn't it theoretically be the other way around? Maybe we're all supposed to rape little girls and kill babies in order to be good people. The point is, Tabb, that the existence of God still isn't proven by having good and evil. A person could have easily invented God and made him "good" and invented Satan and made him "evil", so as to force the unwashed masses to adhere to an absolute moral truth, as opposed to complete moral relativity.
The more you know, the less you don't know.
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Registered: September 02, 2003
Posts: 135
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Aguagon, i think that you missed hubbabaloo point. she is saying, correct me if i'm wrong, that how can you have a standard of what "good" and "evil" is if you don't have something to compare it to. God is good, and Satan is evil, that is what we compare life to. hubbabaloo, correct me if i'm wrong. -Blessings
Kindness is a voice that the deaf can hear. -Blessings
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Registered: March 08, 2004
Posts: 1686
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I wrote a blog post on this five months ago, and in the spirit of egotism, I will now quote an excerpt from it: quote: Now, are human beings naturally wired to stab each other in the back and destroy others in their quest for happiness, or are they wired to help each other out so that they can bask in a mutually happy and productive society with all their neighbors? Unless they're politicians or stockbrokers, I think the correct answer is the latter. We're social beings. The happiness of certain other humans is essential to our own. Beyond this, we're rational beings, capable of understanding that even if we do not know a specific human who is in need of help, lots of other humans do. Thus, we can reach the conclusion that helping out some guy we don't know is a "good deed", and doing good deeds feels good. But why does doing good deeds feel good? Is it because of the praise we receive afterwards? Is it because God smiles down upon us and triggers an endorphin boost in our brain? No. I think it's because we're biologically wired to feel good after lending a helping hand. It makes a lot of sense, as the desire of humans to help out is essential to the survival of the species. Procreating feels good, and so does saving a life.
I think the specifics of what was "good" or "evil" was worked out pretty much in the way EG said. Primitive humans got positive feedback when they did things that created positive emotions, and negative feedback when they did things that created negative emotions. The results dictated what are now generally considered "good" and "evil" deeds. Although as clpo pointed out, good and evil are ultimately in the eye of the beholder. Now, $5 says reactionary finds this thread and starts ranting about the evils of moral relativism.
And then, as the books were told, Fina replied: "A can of worms, my dear friend? What has this to do with reason?"
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Registered: December 11, 2003
Posts: 9501
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quote: How can atheists out there discuss ethics without a God
Because one may have morals and ethics, that one thought of themselves, without any particular faith. I don't think good and evil can exist, and if they exist, they are parallel, but eventually meeting somewhere, in which case the lines between good and evil become shady, and thus the fact that was is good and evil depends on the situation.
"Regardless, I have always, and will always, succeed."
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Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6044
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quote: How can there be good and an evil if there is no supernatural?
The answer to this question is simpler than one might think. There are no such things as good and evil.Think about it, do you know anything (or anyone) that is truly evil? And I'm not talking child rapist evil, I'm talking completely utterly evil. Well, there are no such people. See, the ideas of "good" and "evil" have relative definitions. What's good to one person may be evil to another (homosexuality and abortion come to mind). Thus, you can't say that something is definitely "good" or that something is definitely "evil". Now, what makes a person "good" or "evil"? Their actions. Let's say I go out and kill a baby, believing it to be the reborn Hitler. Most everyone would see that as an evil act because I just killed a seemingly innocent baby. However, I saw it as a good act because the baby was Hitler come back to kill us all. By popular opinion, I am an evil babykiller. By my own opinion, I'm the righteous savior of the world. There is no good and evil. The universe cannot be good, nor can it be evil. Such things do not exist naturally, but are created by us as humans to define that which we do not (or cannot) understand.
The more you know, the less you don't know.
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Registered: May 29, 2005
Posts: 216
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Registered: January 15, 2003
Posts: 3714
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quote: No need to get defensive.
Huh? quote: I know that morals were before Christianity. But before religion?
If there were no morals before religion, and before Gods, where did the morals we have now come from? They didn't magically appear out of no where. I believe they were developed and "improved" upon as the human race advanced to the point that the concept of a God could be understood. If before religion, there was no difference between good or bad, we'd have killed ourselves early on. Our primitive ancestors knew what was good and what was bad, because they had a bigger brain that is capable of complex emotions such as guilt and empathy. So, most likely, when one of them did something that made them feel these emotions, they decided not to do it and probably taught their children to avoid that behavior. That is were morals came from. Before there was an Allah, God, Buddha, Zeus or whatever, our morals were shaped by our complex human emotions toward each other. Religion only made them more complicated. If an Atheist is raised in a social environment and can feel, he has morals. They may be slightly different from yours, but they have them. It's that simple.
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Registered: November 27, 2003
Posts: 1512
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quote: Originally posted by EarthGoddess: quote: But, I've just always wondered how atheists can have a concept of good or evil.
They just do. Morals were invented before Christianity.
I'm not trying to debate, EarthGoddess. I'm just asking you. No need to get defensive. I know that morals were before Christianity. But before religion? I can understand it with all other religions. I'm just curious as to with NO god.
Just because nobody understands you, that doesn't mean you're artistic.
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Registered: March 13, 2002
Posts: 3477
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_HobbesGood 'ol Hobbes. While it's a bit more complex, and not exactly "good and evil", morality based upon "natural law" provides at least a system of right and wrong that is NOT totally relative.
"Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?"
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Registered: January 15, 2003
Posts: 3714
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quote: But, I've just always wondered how atheists can have a concept of good or evil.
They just do. Morals were invented before Christianity.
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Registered: November 27, 2003
Posts: 1512
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I agree. However, I've always been Christian (I believe in God). But, I've just always wondered how atheists can have a concept of good or evil. This isn't to put down atheists or anything like that (I don't agree with atheism, but that's not the point of this thread), I'm just curiously asking. How?
Just because nobody understands you, that doesn't mean you're artistic.
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Registered: October 04, 2005
Posts: 3
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well, like i USED to believe and so many others out there, becuase there is so much hurt and suffering, there must not be a god. as i would sit alone in my room contemplating my own suicide, god was the last thing i would think could ever help me. i of course came through those times, and i believe myself to be a better person because of it. religion in my eyes isn't something to be handed down from parents to children, but something one must earn, through self degradation and a completely open mind to the fact that there must in fact, be a higher power. we as a people take for granted so many wonderful things in this world, and focus on every negative evil possible. every morning the sunrise never ceases to amaze me, and i thank GOD for it.
we all have friends, but we stand alone
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