quote:

I was merely pointing out that this verse says we can believe everything God says without question,

Actually the Bible said that love believes all things. It never said, without question.

quote:

Nephilem who wrote the Bible?

Many different people who God inspired, over a long period of time. Such as Abraham, Paul, John

quote:

And for someone who not only owns, and reads his own bible, you seem to demonstrate a lack of acknowledge on the subject. Example being, taking verses out of the context they were written in.

That's like saying everyone who owns a physics textbook should readily understand physics. No one can fully understand the Bible, and the vague wording of many parts leaves it wide open to interpretation, such as in 1 Corinthians 13.

I'm still confused, though. How can love, a feeling, believe all things? Doesn't this apply to people in love or those who have love?

Morality is decided by man, in my opinion, but about God sinning.. God or the Gods are above the concept of sin. They don't need it to keep them moral. What I'm trying to say is, that God is completely capable of "sinning" if you imagine that sin is applicable to the Gods. But it's not. They're immortal, and divine. Sin is a mortal concern ( or for other non-mortals such as angels ), and cannot be held up against the Gods. God can murder, which is a sin. God can hate, which is a sin. It's not in his nature to do many of these things. How can he call them sin if he does them himself? But I believe he is fully capable of it, he just has a divine will to keep himself from doing it!

Does that make sense?

Shade:

So you are leaning toward the first horn of the dilemma, and saying that "Good" is arbitrary.

That morality is commanded by God, but not exactly bound by God. That what is moral is moral because God says so, and not so much a creation of God.

So God cannot sin because he can do whatever he wants, and because he is the commander of what is sin, is not bound by his own commands?

This is an interesting idea if I have it right... do I?

quote:

God is perfect, so therefore he cannot sin. For God to be able to sin, would then make him imperfect and not God. The Bible uses light and dark as an example, you can't have light and dark mixed together. Light is absolute. You can have different degrees of light obviously, but light isn't 70% light and 30% dark per say, but it is wholly light, and will always be.

Well, I have to assume you understood what I said... and I must say I disagree.

Cplo, is no way is 1 Cor 13 telling us to believe everything, but rather love, being perfect, believes all things. That's not say that we as Christians, if told there is no such thing a God, Jesus, or the Bible, we should believe it, simply because love believes everything and we are to have love.

And for someone who not only owns, and reads his own bible, you seem to demonstrate a lack of acknowledge on the subject. Example being, taking verses out of the context they were written in.

Shade:

God is perfect, so therefore he cannot sin. For God to be able to sin, would then make him imperfect and not God. The Bible uses light and dark as an example, you can't have light and dark mixed together. Light is absolute. You can have different degrees of light obviously, but light isn't 70% light and 30% dark per say, but it is wholly light, and will always be.

Not whether what is Holy is or isn't defined by God, goes into the whole, "Euthyphro's dilemma" of "Is the [Holy], [Holy] because it is loved by the Gods, or it is [Holy] and therefore loved by the Gods."

This has been a dilemma ever sense Plato wrote it. On the one hand, is something is Holy because it is loved by God. Then there is no such thing as Holy because it can be changed. And then there is what is Holy, and therefore loved by God, which makes God arbitrary.

Some say that it is a false dilemma, because Holy is defined by the nature of God. But this brings up the issue that Holy isn't controlled by God, but a property of God. Sort of like, 'everything that is right, is right because I say so, then I could never be wrong, because I am the embodiment of right.' It doesn't really solve the dilemma, because if the idea that what God makes Holy, is therefore Holy, seen as a bad idea, then God is bound to morality. It would be like me saying, 'No, wait a minute, that isn't right this is.' Either that cannot happen because I am always right, or it could because I am always right and therefore I am bound to reason.

I don't really know where I stand on the dilemma, but it should be noted that if the second horn is wrong because of the limitations placed on God to love the Holy, then it is in fact a false dilemma. Though it would seem still to limit God, it would make him subservient to something that he essentially created.

Also on the issue of "will all the spirits rise", I don't believe so, based on what Paul wrote 1 Cor 15:51. That we will not all remain "asleep", but we will ALL be "changed". What change that is made isn't totally clear and therefore I would say unimportant, but a matter circumstance. It is also unclear of who is the subject of "we", whether it is man-kind in general or just Christians...

Either way, it is hard to call this a contradiction given the room for the abstract.

Nephilem who wrote the Bible?

Screw youthnoise. This is going to be short and terse. Youthnoise cleared my post.


Clpo:

quote:

Eternal death? Death is not something that lasts for eternity. You die and that's it.

They refer to seperation from God. Death has dual meanings in the bible.

quote:

I understand that. But the wording makes it seem as if some spirits will not rise at all.

Only to people who have no idea what they're reading.

quote:

God defines sin as he wishes. Or so I've been told.

I think what Nephilim was trying to say is that sin doesn't apply to God. If he acts in a way that would be considered sin for a mortal, it's not sin. He's a God. Don't forget that.

Nephilem:

quote:

God is omnipotent.

Is he now? And he can't lie? Anyways, I'll let you and OG have it out about just how much God can do.

quote:

God is above temptation, and above sin. Therefore he does not and will not sin.

God defines sin as he wishes. Or so I've been told.

quote:

The bible is telling us that we can believe all things that God tells us. It never states however that we can not test what God tells us. We can test the Bible all we want.

I never said we couldn't test the Bible. I was merely pointing out that this verse says we can believe everything God says without question, while other verses say it is prudent to accept nothing without question.

Eagle:

quote:

That whole paragraph just goes to further show your ignorance of 1 Cor 13.

Your perfectly useless explanation is doing nothing to help. Either you said exactly what I said, or you're just stating the obvious. I can't really tell.

From my understanding of 1 Corinthians 13, good things are pointless without love. Perfect love (described in the chapter) is something no human can actually possess, since humans are imperfect. However, Paul is not saying we need to have love. Instead, we need to strive for it. Christianity is all about trying to be as much like God as possible. We'll never achieve it, but that's not the point. Christianity is a journey, not a destination.

So, one of the aspects of perfect love is unquestioning belief, or trust, in the one being loved. In this case, it is God. So, my point does still stand, since we are to believe everything about God.

And yes, I have a Bible. Again, try not to tell me things about myself. You will be wrong.

quote:

You are stating that a thick volume containing many improbable and nonsensical events is in keeping with reality and is factual.

Which improbable and nonsensical events are you referring to?
Do you have any examples?

You are stating that a thick volume containing many improbable and nonsensical events is in keeping with reality and is factual. You're not saying you think it may be true, that it's probable, you're saying it's true. That leaves you accountable for a pretty heavy burden of proof.

quote:

In that case, I'd find your claims fairly alarming.

Please explain.

In that case, I'd find your claims fairly alarming.

quote:

What is your definition of "true"?

Merriam Webster online Dictionary

Being in accordance with the actual state of affairs <true description> (2) : conformable to an essential reality

that is fitted or formed or that functions accurately b : conformable to a standard or pattern : ACCURATE

As Pilot said when he interogated Jesus before washing his hands and giving him over to the people.

What is truth?

What is your definition of "true"?

quote:

You're attempting to discover if an unseen hypothetical deity loves you through semantical analysis of a several thousand year old book translated from a language radically different from English that isn't even meant to be taken in an entirely literal sense.

I am claiming that the bible is dependable, and true. So if the Bible tells us that God loves us, we should trust it. As of now I have not seen any reason to drought the validity of the Bible.

Secondly, we can compare the Bible that we have today with some of the near originals, (The dead see scrolls) and find that the bible still has the same message and meaning. And the Bible has both a literal and a symbolic meaning.

You're attempting to discover if an unseen hypothetical deity loves you through semantical analysis of a several thousand year old book translated from a language radically different from English that isn't even meant to be taken in an entirely literal sense.

quote:

Secondly, even when taken in context, the verse is essentially saying "Love...believes all things." (The KJV uses charity to mean love.) This is really no better. So instead of believing all things without question, we're to believe all things without question when we're in love. And since believing in and worshiping God is all about love...my point still stands.

That whole paragraph just goes to further show your ignorance of 1 Cor 13. Here, I'll do you a favor:

1 Corinthians 13

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Obviously the attributes being listed are of "Charity", or for those of us who speak a more modern English, "Love". 15 in all. Obviously many of the attributes of love couldn't apply to us, note Verses 4,5 and 8. These are in clear contradiction of human nature. They may be hard to understand, but sense you seem to prefer the "Kings English", I won't "dumb it down" for you.

Perhaps you just don't have a bible to study? I'll help. Here is a free one. http://www.biblegateway.com It has all kinda of translations, and commentaries and helpful links, so you won't get confused again.

Just to reiterate what you said:

quote:

So instead of believing all things without question, we're to believe all things without question when we're in love.

quote:

He threw Christ!

Sorry about that, I was in a hurry.

quote:

Not omnipotent? What kind of god is that? I mean, this guy is supposed to rule the entire universe and you're telling me he can't do everything?

God is omnipotent.

quote:

Oh, hardly a good reason. That's called misrepresentation, that is. Now I've even less reason to believe it.

It was not representation. God was promising that he was all powerful.
God is above temptation, and above sin. Therefore he does not and will not sin.

quote:

Eternal death? Death is not something that lasts for eternity. You die and that's it. If you keep on dying (or die for eternity), that counts as eternal life, although a rather crappy one.

I will say again the point that the bible was making is that not all will have eternal life with God. So some will die physically and then have life spiritually with God, and others will die physically and spiritually.

quote:

Similar meanings, perhaps, but the difference in wording can cause very big problems

If you don’t like the modern translations then read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek.

quote:

Secondly, even when taken in context, the verse is essentially saying "Love...believes all things."

The bible is telling us that we can believe all things that God tells us. It never states however that we can not test what God tells us. We can test the Bible all we want.