quote:

How often have any of you read the bible?

Eh...I read the entire New Testament in three weeks. I've read most of the Old Testament and I use to read it ever single day. But, I haven't read it in quite some months now, to be honest with you.

quote:

Every thing is either true or false

Oh, how did I get mad over that simple statement? Such a wonder. There are not two sides to every issue!! There is not just chaos and law, good and evil. dark and light. There are infinite combinations of all of those, and more. If you say everything is true or false, what does that make God, then? She is not true. She is not false. She simply Is. She's a God. Simply existing. Some things, and some people, and some ideas, and some beliefs, simply exist, some are a combination of right and wrong, some are a mixture of belief and denial. Je repete: There is not just one side to an issue.

quote:

Did you happen to read all of Job 20? It isn't saying, "You die and that's it." It is saying you die physically, and you are no longer part of this world.

Yeah, I agree, clpo. You can't just take verses out of context. The bible must be read in parts, not in sentences.

chill out, I was responding to that quote, and when I said people try to get you to believe blindly I wasn't refering to the Bible I was referring to people(like nephilem, or anyone who insists that if you don't believe you are doomed to hell), I guess I wasn't clear.

quote:

wow that is interesting...especially considering that people constantly try to get you to believe based on complete blind faith...huh

Your both misunderstanding faith.
A "Blind Faith" or a better description would be "Childlike Faith", is to Believe fully that Jesus is the son of God and to do so without doubt. Not exactly believing and not knowing why or haven not proven it to yourself.

16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
-Luke 18:16

3And [Jesus] said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
-Matthew 18:3

20[Jesus] replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
-Matthew 17:20

How often have any of you read the bible?

quote:

This is my favorite. The Bible itself is telling us it's smart to believe only what can be proven, while at the same time telling us to believe blindly. Interesting, no?

wow that is interesting...especially considering that people constantly try to get you to believe based on complete blind faith...huh


nephilem, do you yourself think the Bible is to be taken literally or symbolically?

quote:

Yes. Job 20:7 says "Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung," and Isaiah 26:14 says "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise."

Did you happen to read all of Job 20? It isn't saying, "You die and that's it." It is saying you die physically, and you are no longer part of this world.

27 The heavens will expose his guilt;
the earth will rise up against him.
-Job 20:27

And compare the last verse of Isaiah 26, to 1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

quote:

Should we believe everything?

Yes. 1 Corinthians 13:7 says in no uncertain terms "Believeth all things."

Only when evidence warrants. Proverbs 14:15 says "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going," and 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

I think your quoting of 1 Corinthians 13:7 is wrong:

6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
- 1 Corinthians 13:6-8

Have you bothered to look these passages up? Or are you simply copying and pasting and just assuming your source is correct?

As for the "Can God do anything topic", I am not going to entertain such juvenile theology... I remember being in Sunday school and saying, "If God can do anything can he make a rock so hot he can't touch it?!" And thinking I was smart.

When you want to seriously discuss this topic let me know.

quote:

To this point you have simply stated that the Bible has contradictions, but you have not shown us any. Also the Bible is not just a book of Metaphors.

For the most part, the Bible operates on extended metaphors. Genesis, for instance, most likely contains no historical truths. There was not a single man and a single woman from whence all of humanity came. The Bible is more figurative than most people think it is.

Also, I have a whole list of contradictions that I'd love to show you (you never asked for them before anyways). Unfortunately, the last time I did that, all the pointless ones were picked out in an attempt to discredit the entire list. So instead, here are the ones I find most damning:

Can God do everything?

Yes. Jeremiah 32:27 says "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?" and Luke 1:37 says "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

No. Hebrews 6:18 says "It was impossible for God to lie."

This is a clear contradiction with Luke, which says nothing is impossible for God. But if it is possible for God to lie, would you really trust him?

Is death final?

Yes. Job 20:7 says "Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung," and Isaiah 26:14 says "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise."

No. Matthew 25:46 says "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," and 1 Corinthians 15:52 specifically states that "The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised."

The Bible says that all will be raised, yet some will not? Clear contradiction. Even the wicked will be raised (just to suffer everlasting punishment), according to some parts of the Bible.

Should we believe everything?

Yes. 1 Corinthians 13:7 says in no uncertain terms "Believeth all things."

Only when evidence warrants. Proverbs 14:15 says "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going," and 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

This is my favorite. The Bible itself is telling us it's smart to believe only what can be proven, while at the same time telling us to believe blindly. Interesting, no?

Those are just a few of the ones I've come across. There are more, but it's late and I don't want to go through the entire list.

quote:

Every thing is either true or false. Which do you say the Bible is, and can you back up your beliefs?

Don't limit me with black and white. There is plenty enough gray for me to say neither. As I said, it simply is. And I can back that up by picking it up and holding it in my hand.

But if you're going to be stubborn, than I find it false in the sense that any fictional book is false. It may have truths contained within it, but the book as a whole is not a work of non-fiction, and I won't hold it as such until it is proven to me that it is more than just a simple book written by humans.

quote:

Every thing is either true or false. Which do you say the Bible is, and can you back up your beliefs?

The entire universe does not necessarily operate on principals of boolean logic. You cannot always have a yes/no answer.

Also, you are examining the Bible as one solid unit. However, it contains thousands upon thousands of pieces of information. If you must resort to a true/false analysis, you have to look at the information piece by piece.

quote:

Define falsehoods. Clearly, none of us can prove that the Bible is definitely false (heck, it's a book of metaphors), but I can indeed show you many, many contradictions, which throw doubt on the idea that it was divinely inspired.

If there are all these contradictions in the Bible can you tell us of any? To this point you have simply stated that the Bible has contradictions, but you have not shown us any. Also the Bible is not just a book of Metaphors.

quote:

stand by my statement that it is just a book; it is neither true nor false. It just is.

Every thing is either true or false. Which do you say the Bible is, and can you back up your beliefs?

Wow I've missed the whole debate...fuck!

Basically Nephilem what I was getting at was that you can't prove that God exists with the Bible, as clpo pointed out it's a book written by people, it's not proof of Gods existance. Same as I can't prove God doesn't exist, you cannot prove that it does. You can strongly believe in it, but you cannot prove it.

I'll let clpo take a hold of the contradictions. My knowledge in them is somewhat lacking.

I agree with Eagle's second paragraph. I don't believe based on the bible. Sure, I read it when I actively went to church, but I don't even do that anymore. I've done a lot of soul searching, and came to my conclusions from that. The bible can boil in a pit of acid for all I really care; it wouldn't change my belief or disbelief in god. So disprove away.. And Nephilim... the bible isn't everything. Don't have faith in the book; have faith in your God. The book is not your god; it is just a pathway to him.

Well put clpo.. It is what it is.

Say what you want about aggressive evangelism, skeptics have their own from of aggressive evangelism as well. Though what you choose to believe is entirely up to you. I don't believe Christ was the son of God simply because "the bible tells me so"... I am ashamed to say. But my beliefs come from my own personal study and seeking of God. Having said that. I believe that one has to either except Christ for who he said he was, or believe he was lair. I simply chose the former.

Although, I do, having said all that, take offense to the "Christ" and "Bible" bashing that goes on around here. I don't know why it would be any harder to simply say, "I don't believe you..." and leave it at that. Anything said from then on is moot.

Define falsehoods. Clearly, none of us can prove that the Bible is definitely false (heck, it's a book of metaphors), but I can indeed show you many, many contradictions, which throw doubt on the idea that it was divinely inspired.

I stand by my statement that it is just a book; it is neither true nor false. It just is.

If the Bible has any faults then show them. If every thing the Bible says is true we should believe it. If it contains falsehoods we can disregarded it.

quote:

Prophetic evidence: prophecies that were made in the Old Testament about Jesus were fulfilled hundreds of years later.

One of the many brilliant things I have learned from Harry Potter is that by knowing about 'prophecy' you will make it come true.

What type of person tries to fulfill prophecies about being executed in the most brutal way possible by the Romans?

quote:

"God exists because he does and so Jesus is real and if you don't believe that you're a big poopy-head"

Okay, that just made me laugh. :P

Indeed. Skeptics aren't going to accept the argument "God exists because he does and so Jesus is real and if you don't believe that you're a big poopy-head" so it ticks us off when people insist on using it continually.

quote:

Why is the idea of the messiah approached with such malcontent? Skepticisms I can understand, but the sarcasm that seems implied is really unwarranted.

I would think it is because some people are frustrated of having the same argument over and over again and the lack of physical evidence to support some arguments. But that is just my guess.

quote:

f I predict that something seemingly improbable, but actually quite possible, will happen within a span of 500 years and it does, and if I make several of these predictions, can I become a messiah?

Well, no, you'd be a prophet in that case. However if you healed the bind, deaf, raised the dead and resurrected from the dead... then maybe you'd have shot.

So lets see either.

Why is the idea of the messiah approached with such malcontent? Skepticisms I can understand, but the sarcasm that seems implied is really unwarranted.

If I predict that something seemingly improbable, but actually quite possible, will happen within a span of 500 years and it does, and if I make several of these predictions, can I become a messiah?

Speaking of which, the Catholic Church apparently requires all new saints to perform three miracles. I love that. It's like a job application.

"Please describe the three most recent miracles you have performed in three short paragraphs of between 50-75 words each. Due to dramatic increase in saint influx, having the image of Mary appearing on any food products (or other qualifying items) prepared by you is no longer accepted."

quote:

This site has a bunch of the prophecies

I'm interested in the specific one...

quote:

Prophetic evidence: prophecies that were made in the Old Testament about Jesus were fulfilled hundreds of years later.

They were also fufilled by other prophets and "sons" of God as well. Jesus turned out to be the most popular. Imagine if one of the other ones had wooed the crowds successfully? ( their names escape me at the moment )