Let's talk witchcraft.

Let's talk about the animal sacrifice in santería, the connections between Christianity and spiritism, the importance of the gremoires to modern magicians or whatever you call them, magic with demons and angels, astral projection, etc.

Any talk about Wicca and I will cyber-shoot you. SERIOUS withcraft, not fluffy-bunny bullshit.

You don't have to be a believer, but I don't want to hear about how all witchcraft is crap. I don't care. I respect your beliefs, respect mine. All I ask for is people who have knowledge about witchcraft, not Wicca.

I also wish to discuss the consecuences of witchcraft on people's lives. Good and bad, it's ok. I'm just interested in it.

I realize I may be the only one in YN who gives a lot about this, but I'll try.


Oh, and if you have questions, I will answer with all my knowledge. The only thing I know little of is herb lore.

I'll start. The animal sacrifice in santería has been a topic of controversy, even for the santeros, for years. Do you feel it necessary, as a means of power or symbolism, to use animal sacrifice in witchcraft of magic, or do you think it merely as a decoration/tradition factor?

I also have to ask, if there are any on YN, how is Christian witchcraft like?

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If I want to spell in a mixture of cyrillic and Arabic letters in Haitian Créole, I will do so. I know too many languages to be shunned at for having a damn typo.

I have done no shunning. If that's your excuse, it's a lame one (many YNers, including myself, are also multi-lingual yet spell English words in English).
Sorry you took my pointer with such hostility. We all make typos; I already know well that you're not stupid.

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Would you find it disrespectful to ask him to join in to a ceremony or the like?

Not at all. If you ask casually, he shouldn't be offended--unless he has expressed to you some distate toward witchcraft. Otherwise, that'd be a great way to share something somewhat personal with him.

Well Celtic, on the whole Wiccan/Mary thing it all depends on where you think Christianity was copied from. Christianity bears a large resemblence to Egyptian mythology and religion, and Mary is really a lot like Isis.

Also, Wicca draws from gods and goddesses earlier than Chrisitianity, so I would think that they are a little too different. Partly because of the whole five fold kiss thing, and the fact that the Wiccan goddess comes from an old legend about where faires come from.

In terms of mixing religions, an interesting point. Taoism has its own system of magic, mostly to do with spirits and astral projection. But its methodology is really quite interesting. There are really two sorts of Taoism, philosophical and the magical/ritual. Buddhism is really quite compatible with magic too but uses, like philosophical Taoism, chi or life force as the central component.

Thats all I have time to respond with now. I'll be back later.

Well, it gives me extreme hope to know that the youth is thus uneducated about religion it only has the capability to about one or two religions.

Really, people, learn. Even if you hate the core and root of a subject, you learn because it makes you not sound like an ignorant fool. It'll ward off the Alzheimer's for a few more years. I had to suck up learning about Catholicism for six years and American History for two (and this following school year, three) years, and even though I wanted to slit my wrists every time the Civil War and the Virgin Mary were spoken of, at least I'm happy I can contribute to a conversation of the two former topics.

If I want to spell in a mixture of cyrillic and Arabic letters in Haitian Créole, I will do so. I know too many languages to be shunned at for having a damn typo.

Ah, yes, and another topic I wished to ask of, what is your opinion of the mixture of elements of other religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, etc) into witchcraft? An also, I have a Christian boyfriend. I have been at his church and the like, but he has not participated in any ritual of mine (except rune casting once). Would you find it disrespectful to ask him to join in to a ceremony or the like? Another big question...it is believed by some that the godesses worshipped in Wicca (yes, I know I said don't speak of it, but this is a good question) are in truth the Virgin Mary and vice-versa. I want to know your opinions on that statement.

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If you notice I spelled it both ways in my post. I'm an aweful spellar. Razz

Ha. That wasn't directed solely to you, but yes, I have noticed. Moreover, I very much appreciate your reminder.

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Originally posted by faerienite:
Just a quick note I felt compelled to make: it's spelled experience. Thanks.

If you notice I spelled it both ways in my post. I'm an aweful spellar.

In general I do find magic and the like to be full of shit, if only because I've seen no evidence to the contrary

What I've heard about the wicker man is that it was a form of capital punishment (harsh I gotta say, make lethal injection or even beheading seem like a kindness)

Just a quick note I felt compelled to make: it's spelled experience. Thanks.

Celtic: Calm down and read this. I DO have experience with this stuff, as I've had several friends who have been fairly interested in the stuff, and was in a very close relationship with someone who was into magic and involved with a circle of druidic magic practicers. Now, I'm sorry I don't live in the Carribean and have exposure to a wide culture of magic followers, I live in New Jeresy. But I HAVE had access to what little there is around me, and I've failed to have any personal experiance from it.

Now I apologize for the BS comment, it's just really hard for me to take some of this seriously because it just doesn't jive with anything I know. I've heard the "I'm ignoring you from now on" line a million times from a dozen different people and I don't really care. I still want to discuss it.

Now here a SERIOUS question I asked in my last post. I think it's a fully legitimate one, and a straight answer would honestly fill in some gaps for me. So I'd really appriciate a response. You said this thread's about education so here's your chance:

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Oh and a second point: You just said that "waving a knife around in a circle through incense is a joke", but I'm reading through this santeria, which you seem to find legitimate. It all seems to be crushing fruit together in a specific pot, or wearing random materials in jewelry. How is that ANY different than Wicca? How could that affect the world at large in ANY signifigant sense?

Again I would appriciate a serious answer to that.

You mistintreperate my skepticism, I'm not here to bash your religion and try to change your faith. I'm not so naive to think that's possible in an internet forum. But I do ask that you respond to criticism. I'd do the same for you.

Would you just drop it for once? I don't give a shit whether you like it or not, Doctor. If I have to respect your beliefs, respect mine. I will always like this and you will never change that; the most important people in the planet for me have not. I haven't even read your entire post because I know what it says, considering it's your way or the highway most times.

So, really, just drop it. Continue in your spiritual paths and I will in mine. If you think calling people's beliefs bullshit (whether political, moral, or religious) will change them, then you need a reality check. That just makes people believe in them more strongly.

So really, I'm asking you to quit bashing the concept of this thread; it's meant to educate. I personally will be ignoring your posts, because you always say the same things regarding witchcraft, regardless of the fact that you have no expirience with it. I'm happy this way, and you have too little significance in my life to comment on my spiritual happiness or to try to sway my views in the area; like i said, no one has ever changed my religious views and don't think that of all people that I love and cherish, you will be the grand one who does it.

Amp is Catholic, amp probably thinks this is crap. But amp is not flaunting his views or trying to seem like "I'm right and everything else is wrong". He asked a question to clarify a doubt. The fact that you don't believe does not mean you have the right to disrespect.

By the way, Amp, if you want to learn about the wicker man...don't watch the movie The Wicker Man. They present it as sacrifice, when in truth those burned were prisoners of war and the like (Brehon, clarify me here if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read on druidism). There are not a lot of books out there in druidism, considering it was wiped out and they had not written books on it either, and at least in this country it's not very wide-spread.

No, Brehon, I don't believe in chi. The concept of it has been way too saturated in New Age for me to believe in it. I mean, the concept is good, but I don't trust must books on it.

I got your email, thanks for the book. Will definetly be reading it.

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Yes, I'm a skeptic. You'll have to put up with someone like me all your life. I see magic as I do superstition. A comfort thing, perhaps, but all in your mind just the same.

Skeptics keep religions from becoming too deeply rooted in dogma, and challenges traditionally held views: therefore a necessary and beneficial thing.

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Then we could use it in medicines and bombs.

I think the phrase is lol.

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any one know much about druidism

Yeah, I do. Druidism used to be the celtic religion and can be identified as such by the presence of 'threefold' goddesses, who represent the maiden, the mother and the crone. Also land, sea and sky. It never included human sacrifice to the best of my knowledge, only methods of execution for crimes. The Celts had a complicated legal system and lawyers, see the Brehon code.

Modern druidism is a branch of neo paganism and subscribes to worshiping 'spirits of the place' and a large variety of pantheons. Neodruidism has virtually no dogma, it being wiped out by Christianity, so is very free with belief.

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I believe in growing the power within yourself

Sounds like Chi.....

Celtic, I'm going to have to say that all "magic" is BS, or at least a misunderstood phenomena. There's no such thing as curses, etc.

One thought I DO entertain though is that the relationship between conciousness and the fabric of the universe. I've read some theories about how conciousness is related to things on the quantum level, so I don't rule out that somehow people could "tune" into the world at large. That is, remote viewing, etc. Likewise I think there *might* be some merit in meditation, but not anything that could be misconstrued as "magic" or "curses".

But healing, seeing things, a witch "knowing you and describing your mentality", that stuff sounds like John Edwards. There's all sorts of dupes and cons, and not all of it is conscious.

I mean, I'd willingly have someone put a curse on me just for the hell of it. Think of it as a great experiment, ha. If there really is magic out there, there's no reason why we couldn't quanitfy and control it. Then we could use it in medicines and bombs.

Oh and a second point: You just said that "waving a knife around in a circle through incense is a joke", but I'm reading through this santeria, which you seem to find legitimate. It all seems to be crushing fruit together in a specific pot, or wearing random materials in jewelry. How is that ANY different than Wicca? How could that affect the world at large in ANY signifigant sense?

any one know much about druidism? I've heard alot of conflicting stories that involve ritual murder (like the wicker man) and all sorts of strange things?

I've always thought that ritual sacrifices were more of a window dressing to what's really going on, I mean from a witchcraft perspective if everyone is concentrating on the critter being slaughtered no one will see what your really doing which prevents others beyond the few you choose of gaining similer power.

Brehon, here ya go, the best online resource to santería
http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/Santeria/TOC.html

Yes, clpo, I do, to a point. That's why I say serious witchcraft. I believe 90% of witches out there are inneffective and ridiculizing (sp? sorry, am horribly tired) witchcraft. I believe there are few people out there who have reached a higher wisdom in spirituality than most do and therefore can use some form or the other of magic (I don't mean witchcraft, I mean anything, like healing, or visions, etc); and I think some people have this as a god-given gift from childhood. What I believe in I believe in out of my own expiriences with it, so obviously I can't prove it to you unless I see you in person.

I can tell you, however, of my expiriences, and I know it won't do much, but I will anyways. Well, let's see... when I did use demons in magic, I did manage to ruin quite a few people, at the expense of ruining myself. Also, I made a near damn impossible dream come true with the help of a witch. I have been able to heal people as well. I had a witch curse me as a child and I was having quite a horrible life for a long time; and by horrible I mean HORRIBLE. I met another witch once that saw me and began very correctly describing me and my mentality; she gave me a blessing and my life has improved much. I do "see" things as well, but I don't think you will believe that so I won't go into detail.

I do have other expiriences, involving dreams, but frankly, I can say they is likely caused by my bad life expiriences rather than a curse or demons. By these dream expiriences I mean I have many night terrors, long (and daily) moments of hallucinating in sleep paralysis, and when I wake up I hallucinate. I want to, in the future, get that checked out by a doctor to see if it qualifies as a sleep disorder or some sort of symptom of my life expiriences; and if doesn't, maybe I will consider it magic or a curse. But I don't think I will ever entirely put it as having to do with the paranormal.

Mind, I don't believe in ritual magic. I think most of it is crap. I believe in growing the power within yourself (after many years of trying with various methods and asking permission from whatever god you praise) and using that as a main source for witchcraft. Waving a knife around in a circle with incense is a joke.

I don't mind skeptics, I mind people who insult it. I'm here to educate as I best I can.

Magic? Do you seriously believe in magic? I have a hard time believing in anything more than stage magic, and there's always an explanation for that.

I personally think magic is bunk, but I could be wrong. I sometimes am. However, I have yet to see anything sufficiently unexplainable for me to lend credence to witchcraft of any sort. Does it really exist, or do you just think it does? Any proof?

Yes, I'm a skeptic. You'll have to put up with someone like me all your life. I see magic as I do superstition. A comfort thing, perhaps, but all in your mind just the same.

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It's so powerful I don't even try to meddle with it.

Come now, meddling is such fun.

However, this stuff sounds very interesting. I must find out about it properly. Do they have any books, perhaps online? If so, I could do you a trade, I've got some of Crowleys works on Judo-Christian magic.

Well, yeah...the effects of it depends on what you do...

Santería is an Afro-Caribbean form of witchcraft, started by the African slaves in the Caribbean islands, that, thanks to the colonial Europeans, got very influenced by Catholicism. The name comes from the word "santo" meaning "saint" in Spanish. Needless to say, its magic and worship strongly involve Catholic saints.

It is very complex; especially that it can either help a person in extreme ways or ruin another's life. There have been people who have been severly cursed by santeros and the thought of being cursed by one is rather terrifying if you live in the Caribbean. I can say it is very effective magic, as with all witchcraft that has African roots. It's so powerful I don't even try to meddle with it.

The killing of an animal in sacrifice for magical purposes is one found in many forms of witch craft round th world. The witchcraft that I am most knowledgable about is the British folklore stuff, but that also included some animal sacrifice. In certain healing spells, I think for whooping cough, you found an elm tree with a crack in the trunck and sealed three shrews inside. When they died, the child got better. Just an example, you understand. This only works because of the power of the symbolism. Without the sacrifice, there would be no magic.

The effects of magic on peoples lives can be wide ranging, I think. One guy who came to my school was interested in summoning, reading all kinds of books. He was pretty strange, even by my taste. He warned me off summoning by telling me how he got possesed. Strange, strange guy. In this case, the consequences were obviously bad. However, in the case of another couple of people I know, it was extremely beneficial. Won't say why, but it was.

As far as I'm aware the Chrisitian magic is mainly from the Jewish tradition. There are several books on the subject; The Sword of Moses and The Quabbalah are some examples.

I've never heard of the santeria. Are they realted in any way to the magic of Aleister Crowly?