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Picture of AMF8
Registered: June 20, 2005
Posts: 337
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Picture of NickJ
Registered: June 23, 2004
Posts: 771
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quote:
who?


Well, the founding father who consistantly always comes to mind when I think of non-christians is Thomas Jefferson... But, there are others, such as: John Adams, James Madison, Thomas Paine, and Ben Franklin... The pretty important ones...


"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
Picture of redrepublican
Registered: June 04, 2004
Posts: 3535
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quote:
some of the really important founders weren't christian...


who?


Honorable Senate Majority Leader (R-WI) "Liberals have gone stark-raving mad, yes,"- Euterpe
Picture of clpo13
Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6040
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quote:
I agree with what you said but on the same note of religion shouldn't be pressed on people either should evolution. It is a thoery that in many ways can be seen as a religion. It practices the absence of God. It is a belief that not all students share... It should not be pressed on us.


We shouldn't teach special relativity, either, because some people don't believe in that! Oh, and we shouldn't teach PE because some people don't believe in that!

Like finn said, evolution isn't a religion. You don't go to evolution church and read an evolution Bible. It's a scientific theory, with proof *gasp* to back it up. You might as well say, "I take offense at being taugh the laws of physics because I don't agree with them!" Tough luck. They're still there.


The more you know, the less you don't know.
Picture of NickJ
Registered: June 23, 2004
Posts: 771
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quote:
The founders were Christian. Its been well documented.


not all of them were. A fair statement would be, "some of the founders were christian." But you just plain said 'The founders were Christian" and that's not true, because not all of the founders were christian... (And, some, (like I assume George Washington) bowed to political pressure and claimed themselves as christians in the public eye. Just a theory though). But, whatever, some of the really important founders weren't christian... The point being that the founders didn't want this country to turn into a theocracy...


"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
Picture of finn620
Registered: January 16, 2004
Posts: 3993
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quote:
I agree with what you said but on the same note of religion shouldn't be pressed on people either should evolution. It is a thoery that in many ways can be seen as a religion. It practices the absence of God. It is a belief that not all students share... It should not be pressed on us.



Evolution is not a religion, nor is it a theory. Evolution has been proven, and even if you do not agree with macroevolution, microevolution undeniably occurs. Natural selection is a theory of how evolution works, but evolution itself we know happens.

Evolution doesn't "practice" anything, and it doesn't state that there is no God. It states that contemporary species were not "created" in the state that they currently exist but have changed over time. There is still room for a God in this theory.

Evolution is not a belief, it is an observation. One doesn't believe in evolution any more than one believes that they earth is round. It is something that is accepted as fact because we have concrete proof.

Naturally, evolution is an important part of biology classes. Biology is science and thus is based on observations. Religion is an abstract idea, not an observation and thus doesn't belong in science classes. I am not totally against religion in schools. I am for an optional theology class that could be taken as an elective (so long as the class didn't make one religion seem more important than the other).

Evolution isn't pressed on students any more than the pythagorean theroem is pressed on students. It's taught because it is an important part of the class, but if you don't want to agree with how right triangles work, you don't have to.


L'enfer, c'est les autres. -Jean-Paul Sartre
Picture of redrepublican
Registered: June 04, 2004
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quote:
The claim that they are, yes. And, not really all of the Signers, because I am sure that at least one or several were christian, but usually when I say founding fathers, I mean the people who wrote the original documents and who made a big impact on America's beginnings. (i.e. first few presidents, Ben Franklin, etc. (the important people who made an impact on America's 'first steps' you might say)).


This is why I posted all of those quotes . The founders were Christian. Its been well documented.


Honorable Senate Majority Leader (R-WI) "Liberals have gone stark-raving mad, yes,"- Euterpe
Picture of historybuff
Registered: June 27, 2005
Posts: 54
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Why is school run by the government anyway?

I agree with what you said but on the same note of religion shouldn't be pressed on people either should evolution. It is a thoery that in many ways can be seen as a religion. It practices the absence of God. It is a belief that not all students share... It should not be pressed on us.
Picture of finn620
Registered: January 16, 2004
Posts: 3993
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And if by this point we have come to an agreement that the government should be free of religion we should also have reached an agreement that public schools (a government institution) should be free of sanctioned religion as well.

Of course students should be allowed to pray in school and form bible clubs, and I also would go so far as to say that teachers should be allowed to express themselves as well (wear religious symbols et cetera) as long as they don't force this expression on others. However, adult run religious clubs, religious material being passed out by adults, et cetera shouldn't be allowed.


L'enfer, c'est les autres. -Jean-Paul Sartre
Picture of CelticNewAger
Registered: December 11, 2003
Posts: 9501
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Red, don't make me bring up Sade's and Osho's quotes on God. They're essays.


"Regardless, I have always, and will always, succeed."
Picture of NickJ
Registered: June 23, 2004
Posts: 771
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quote:
Of course not. Theocracies always tend to lead and transform into dictatorships.


Ok, so we agree that the founders did not want the USA to be a theocracy, then the next whole post you have is moot. It does not matter what religion the founding fathers were, because they meant this government to be free of religion, so any law/outlaw of something can not be justified simply because 'the founding fathers were christian and would have wanted this,' because a) that's bunk, not all were christian, and b) the fact that some of them were is moot because they wanted law free from religion...

I guess that's all I have because I forgot why I was trying to point all of that out... oh well...


"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
Picture of redrepublican
Registered: June 04, 2004
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some of it is repeated. I am sorry. I found a better spot for osme of the quotes and i forgot to erase it.


Honorable Senate Majority Leader (R-WI) "Liberals have gone stark-raving mad, yes,"- Euterpe
Picture of redrepublican
Registered: June 04, 2004
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James Madision



"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

John Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

Thomas Jefferson

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

Ben Franklin

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England." - Benjamin FranklinWhat Did Congress Have to Say?

September 11, 1777

—The Continental Congress recommended and approved that the Committee of Commerce "import 20,000 Bibles from Holland, Scotland, or elsewhere," because of the great shortage of Bibles created by the Revolutionary War’s interruption of trade with England.

September 25, 1789

—After months of discussion and debate, the Congress of the United States approved the language of the first ten amendments to the Constitution, the "Bill of Rights," including the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Also September 25, 1789 (after passing the First Amendment)

—Congress unanimously voted to ask President Washington to declare a national "day of public thanksgiving and prayer."

George Washington (1732-1799)



—First President of the United States and chairman of the Constitutional Convention



—"O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful and loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day."
from Daily Sacrifice, Washington’s personal prayer book, written in his own handwriting, declaring continual faithfulness to Jesus Christ.



"These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial "Without making ostentatious professions of religion, he was a sincere believer in the Christian faith, and a truly devout man."



—John Marshall, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (1801-1835) who served with George Washington at Valley Forge, describing Washington in his Life of George Washington(1804-7), a biography written at the request of Washington’s family.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



John Adams (1735-1826)


as for Rectionary's claim:

—Second President of the United States and signer of the Declaration of Independence — On March 6, 1799, President Adams proclaimed a national day of prayer and fasting so that America might "call to our mind numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, imploring his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgression, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience."



—National Proclamation for a Day of Fasting and Prayer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



James Madison (1751-1836)



—Fourth President of the United States and member of the first U.S. Congress



—"Christ’s Divinity appears by St. John, chapter xx, 2: ‘And Thomas answered and said unto Him, my Lord and my God!’ Resurrection testified to and witnessed by the Apostles, Acts iv, 33: ‘And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.’"
—written in the margin of Madison’s Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



John Jay (1745-1829)



—First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (1789-1795), President of the Continental Congress – "Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son."



—Last Will and Testament, 1829.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------



Patrick Henry (1736-1799)



—Patriot famed for his words "Give me Liberty or give me death."



—"My heart is full. Perhaps I may never see you in this world. O may we meet in heaven, to which the merits of Jesus will carry those who love and serve Him."
—Letter to his sister, Ann Christian, upon the death of her husband, 1786.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



George Mason (1725-1792)



—Well-known for his insistence that Congress add the Bill of Rights to the Constitution —"My soul, I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, whose tender mercies are all over His works, who hateth nothing that He hath made and to the Justice and Wisdom of whose dispensation I willingly and cheerfully submit, humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins."



—Last Will and Testament, 1792.

Barton, David. Original Intent:
The Courts, the Constitution, and
Religion. Aledo, Texas:
Wallbuilder Press, 1997.
Eidsmoe, John. Christianity and
the Constitution: The Faith of
Our Founding Fathers. Grand
Rapids: Baker Book House
Company, 1991.
Federer, William J. America’s
God and Country: Encyclopedia
of Quotations. Coppell, Texas:
FAME Publishing, Inc., 1994.
Grant, George. The Patriot’s
Handbook: A Citizenship Primer
for a New Generation of
Americans. Elkton, Maryland:
Highland Books, 1996.
Staver, Mathew D. Faith and
Freedom: A Complete Handbook
for Defending Your Religious
Rights. Orlando: Liberty Counsel,
1998.

What Did Congress Have to Say?
September 11, 1777
—The Continental Congress recommended and approved that the
Committee of Commerce “import 20,000 Bibles from Holland, Scotland,
or elsewhere,” because of the great shortage of Bibles created by the
Revolutionary War’s interruption of trade with England.

“What our fathers with
so much difficulty
attained, do not basely
relinquish.”
—Inscribed, in Latin, on
Governor William Bradford’s gravestone,
Plymouth, Massachusetts, 1657.

September 25, 1789
—After months of discussion and debate, the Congress
of the United States approved the language of the first
ten amendments to the Constitution, the “Bill of
Rights,” including the First Amendment: “Congress
shall make no law respecting the establishment of
religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
Also September 25, 1789 (after passing the First Amendment)

—Congress unanimously voted to ask President Washington to
declare a national “day of public thanksgiving and prayer.”


Barton, David. Original Intent:
The Courts, the Constitution, and
Religion. Aledo, Texas:
Wallbuilder Press, 1997.

Eidsmoe, John. Christianity and
the Constitution: The Faith of
Our Founding Fathers. Grand
Rapids: Baker Book House
Company, 1991.

Federer, William J. America’s
God and Country: Encyclopedia
of Quotations. Coppell, Texas:
FAME Publishing, Inc., 1994.

Grant, George. The Patriot’s
Handbook: A Citizenship Primer
for a New Generation of
Americans. Elkton, Maryland:
Highland Books, 1996.

Staver, Mathew D. Faith and
Freedom: A Complete Handbook
for Defending Your Religious
Rights. Orlando: Liberty Counsel,
1998.

As quoted by reclaimamerica.org


Honorable Senate Majority Leader (R-WI) "Liberals have gone stark-raving mad, yes,"- Euterpe
Picture of redrepublican
Registered: June 04, 2004
Posts: 3535
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quote:
they still did not want to have the country be/become a christian theocracy...


Of course not. Theocracies always tend to lead and transform into dictatorships.


Honorable Senate Majority Leader (R-WI) "Liberals have gone stark-raving mad, yes,"- Euterpe
Picture of clpo13
Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6040
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In other words, the founding fathers created the United States so people could worship how they please, be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, or atheists. Just as banning all religion in school is unconstitutional, so is forcing religion on all.

So, it's only logical to keep overt religious practices out of school completely, simple to avoid offense. If you want to pray before a test, no one's stopping you. But if you try to get the whole class to pray with you...that's in violation of the First Amendment.


The more you know, the less you don't know.
Picture of NickJ
Registered: June 23, 2004
Posts: 771
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quote:
The very first Presidental Proclamation ever made by Washington was (created the day after the Constitution was ratified) was a "National Day of Thanksgiving to God."


A) Source?

B) "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." -George Washington

Like I said before, the founders (or the important ones) had wanted the US to be separated from any religion, they did not found it on a specific religious principle, etc. So, even if some of them were christian, they still did not want to have the country be/become a christian theocracy...


"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
Picture of bluedemocrat
Registered: December 14, 2004
Posts: 5770
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quote:
This still violates the first ammendment:


Actually, religious clubs are legal. There was a supreme court case awhile back that ruled they were constitutional.


They'll like us when we win - Toby Ziegler.
Picture of reactionary05
Registered: May 07, 2005
Posts: 1213
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The very first Presidental Proclamation ever made by Washington was (created the day after the Constitution was ratified) was a "National Day of Thanksgiving to God."


myspace.com/thesnowfell
Picture of NickJ
Registered: June 23, 2004
Posts: 771
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quote:
The fact that the Signers were Christians?


The claim that they are, yes. And, not really all of the Signers, because I am sure that at least one or several were christian, but usually when I say founding fathers, I mean the people who wrote the original documents and who made a big impact on America's beginnings. (i.e. first few presidents, Ben Franklin, etc. (the important people who made an impact on America's 'first steps' you might say)).


"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
Picture of redrepublican
Registered: June 04, 2004
Posts: 3535
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