quote:

They have the option to go to Christian schools. In fact, at my high school there's a christian club where christian students go and pray and discuss the bible.

This still violates the first ammendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

I merely stated that they aren't necessarily admirable for everyone. I think we tend to romanticize the founding fathers, even though they too could make mistakes.

Apathy has nothing to do with whether or not their original statements continue to hold true. By changes in society I mean different patterns in government, new weapons and methods of warfare, et cetera.

But nonetheless, this isn't about the constitution or the founding fathers. It's about religious beliefs.

The point I am attempting to make is that just because the constitution suggests a higher power doesn't mean that a higher power exists. These men believed in God. Fine. Not everyone does. America is religiously diverse, and there is nothing wrong with that. The words of the founding fathers aren't valid excuses for suggesting that everyone should be theistic.

I don't know Baber. That is a pretty far stretch. Since they used Creater as a proper singular noun, you could still justify that it was their mother... or Nature, as it says. It is not necessarily referring to the biblical god in any sense...

quote:

The fact that many of the men who were involved in this Declaration were Christians. Many were not only Christians but elders in their home churches or presidents of Christian Universities.

And, do you have any proof to back this up?

quote:

Just because something is written down by very admired (notice I said admired and not admirable) people doesn't make it true.

Are you trying to say that the likes of Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington are no longer admirable, can change in time or society change the quality of any person. I disagree, they were and still would be men of quality and character. Societies plunge into apathy and ignorance will never change that.

It doesn't matter whether or not the "founding fathers" intended for Americans to be Christian or not. They were just humans like everyone else here, and therefore were fallible. Their foresight and intelligence was limited, and though parts of the constitution are brilliant, it is not a document that can serve us forever.

Just because something is written down by very admired (notice I said admired and not admirable) people doesn't make it true.

quote:

firearms

actually it just says arms

quote:

'That all men are created equal' (mind you, created doesn't necessarily have religious ties, created could mean concepted by their parents...) 'that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.' (notice also that it says THEIR CREATOR so it could really be any god or nature or parents...)

Actually it says "their Creator". That means that Creator is a proper singlular noun. So that rules out parents as being this creator. The use of the word Nature would have been used if they were indeed refering to nature as the entity with the power to endow rights. The fact that many of the men who were involved in this Declaration were Christians. Many were not only Christians but elders in their home churches or presidents of Christian Universities. So the inference that they are refering to the Creator of the Bible is not a stretch by any means.

quote:

and any christian standard that the founding fathers put in place(such as marriage between a man and a woman, the value of life not the quality of life(abortion being wrong), and things like prayer before every congress session or the ten commandments being plastered all over the building that congress meets in) is being slowly taken out of our country.

You are therefore acknowledging that we live in a theocracy and not a democracy, and that the constitution is invalid. If free speech and freedom of religion don't matter, neither does your right to bear firearms.

quote:

The fact that the ten commandments are being taken out of courthouses

You can't put them up in your own house?

quote:

christians are being told they can't pray in schools

They have the option to go to Christian schools. In fact, at my high school there's a christian club where christian students go and pray and discuss the bible.

quote:

and any christian standard that the founding fathers put in place(such as marriage between a man and a woman, the value of life not the quality of life(abortion being wrong), and things like prayer before every congress session or the ten commandments being plastered all over the building that congress meets in) is being slowly taken out of our country.

Good. We're not living in the 18th century anymore.

I want to live in a country where if I choose to live a life of sin, I can. All the consequences are my responsiblity and mine alone. I don't want to live under a Christian theoracy. My religion is very different from yours and I don't give a flying f--- about christian morality. And I live in a country where I shouldn't have to.

Baber, I'm glad you see that (the first paragraph) the existance of god can neither be proven nor disproven. So, it is all opinion. hm... maybe there's hope for norfolk yet...



But on a different note, there is no evidence for the existence of a God, only speculations. And I don't think it fair to say that a rational person would conclude that there is a god, because that would mean all atheists are irrational. Conversely, the other side of the scale would also be irrational. So those deep in faith in something would be irrational because they are ignoring the possibilities. So, basically the only 'rational' people are agnostic, because they acknowledge that there may or may not be a god...

quote:

The fact that the ten commandments are being taken out of courthouses, christians are being told they can't pray in schools (even though christians are the majority) because it would offend someone of a different religion or someone that doesn't beleive in anything,and any christian standard that the founding fathers put in place(such as marriage between a man and a woman, the value of life not the quality of life(abortion being wrong), and things like prayer before every congress session or the ten commandments being plastered all over the building that congress meets in) is being slowly taken out of our country.

And rightly so. This government is supposed to be free of religious ties (no matter what anyone may say about the founders' religious beliefs...). And, I've not heard of people being told they couldn't pray on in schools. I've only heard that teacher's couldn't pray/make their students pray... No one can control your mind, you could pray all the freakin' time and not pay attention in class and they could do NOTHING about it... And about the founding fathers placing marriage between a man and a woman. hm.. I believe many of the founding fathers signed a document called the Declaration of Independence that stated (if I may restate this (sorry reactionary, just going to have to live with this one)) 'That all men are created equal' (mind you, created doesn't necessarily have religious ties, created could mean concepted by their parents...) 'that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.' (notice also that it says THEIR CREATOR so it could really be any god or nature or parents...) But, gee I would definately say that the founding fathers wanted men to be equal and to be able to be happy. Some can achieve that happiness through marriage: a bond, a vow, some monetary benefits that are rightly theirs to have... two souls that love each other that they agree to be bonded together for the rest of their known existance... Now, I'm pretty sure that the founding fathers specifically said, no gay marriage, as much as some people would like to believe...

well, that's much of what I have to say. Btw, Baber, it's nice to see you back on...

very intersting reactionary....thats is a creative way to put things in perspective

quote:

But you can neither prove or disprove the existence of a spiritual world so you can niether prove or disprove the existence of a God.

Which is why I say we're all agnostics at heart.

quote:

The fact that the ten commandments are being taken out of courthouses, christians are being told they can't pray in schools (even though christians are the majority) because it would offend someone of a different religion or someone that doesn't beleive in anything,and any christian standard that the founding fathers put in place(such as marriage between a man and a woman, the value of life not the quality of life(abortion being wrong), and things like prayer before every congress session or the ten commandments being plastered all over the building that congress meets in) is being slowly taken out of our country.

As it should be. Christians would take offense if class or work was put to a halt periodically to accomodate Muslims.

I was just reading over reactionary's original post and I saw this: "neither are truly looking for God."

Now, someone please explain to me why I would want to look for God. What's in it for me? Are there any guarantees?

And since I'm an impatient man, I'll answer myself. The answer is no. There are no guarantees. There may be paradise, or there may be nothing. I don't put faith in things that may not be there. My faith is better placed in...tangible things.

To make a rather interesting analogy, God is like a seatbelt with a large tear in it. He may save you from certain death, or you might go flying out the window.

quote:

After all the christian music, christian TV shows, christian schools, christian presidents, christian hospitals, christian charities, christian books, christian symbols and the churches that you see everywhere you look, how can you possibly say that Christianity is the most hated religion in America?

The fact that the ten commandments are being taken out of courthouses, christians are being told they can't pray in schools (even though christians are the majority) because it would offend someone of a different religion or someone that doesn't beleive in anything,and any christian standard that the founding fathers put in place(such as marriage between a man and a woman, the value of life not the quality of life(abortion being wrong), and things like prayer before every congress session or the ten commandments being plastered all over the building that congress meets in) is being slowly taken out of our country.

quote:

Don't tell me you actually think to be atheist you have to be "all-knowing." Well, if that's the case then I guess there is no one who truly believes in a god because you can't say one exists unless you are "all-knowing."

To be able to disprove that a God exists you would have to be able to disprove an existence of a spiritual world because that is what he is said to be. But you can neither prove or disprove the existence of a spiritual world so you can niether prove or disprove the existence of a God. You can only choose to beleive that he is or you can choose to believe he is not.

But on a different note, there is no evidence against the existence of a God, only speculations, but many many people have experienced things that has caused them to believe there is a God, so I would say just going on the amount of evidence that we have a rational person would have to by default say that a God probably does exist (but this is my opinion so don't rip on me personally for it).

Another quote for ya'll:

"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow

I'm sorry but I find your reasoning kind of stupid... First off, you use an example that favors the idea of a god because it is more likely that there would be silver. Also, what the hell are you thinking? Don't tell me you actually think to be atheist you have to be "all-knowing." Well, if that's the case then I guess there is no one who truly believes in a god because you can't say one exists unless you are "all-knowing."

And your conceptions of agnostics is completely screwed up... they can't find god because they won't? Ummm... no. When you are agnostic you aren't sure what to believe in like me... I don't know if there is an after-life because no one can know!

Oh and its not fear... Usually its because they use science to reason with the idea of gods.
Me? personally i would love to have an after-life by my scientific reasoning tells me otherwise...

-e

quote:

Why is it that out of all of the religions in this country Christianity is the most hated...

After all the christian music, christian TV shows, christian schools, christian presidents, christian hospitals, christian charities, christian books, christian symbols and the churches that you see everywhere you look, how can you possibly say that Christianity is the most hated religion in America?

Oh, worth and other people of the like are excluded from that last message... some christians are good, and some, like worth, paint christ to be something inexplicably good...

quote:

One of the main reasons that the youth in our country today reject Christianity is because we live in a do what feels right culture... one that the media has brainwashed with anti-Christianity and pro everrything else veiw...

How do you figure this?

quote:

Why is it that out of all of the religions in this country Christianity is the most hated...

Quite possibly because of how the deity is painted. If christians are supposed to live and try to imitate christ's image, than christ is a pretty nasty deity.

Here is a quote to illustrate what I mean:

"The Christian God can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, evil, and capricious. If one wished to know more of this raging, three headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." -Thomas Jefferson

A lot of people are really turned off to christianity because of what christians do. For example, many christians in my area go around telling people that what they believe is wrong, and that they're going to hell, etc. etc. and they try to start up arguments about religion so they can have a delusional feeling that they are being good christians by trying to "save" someone... i'll tell you right now, if God(TM) wanted me to worship it, it would do something...

Apart from your jabberwocky and copious quantity of monotonous text, I have three chief discrepancies with your reasoning/opinions:

quote:

science supposedly proves Him wrong

Science does not prove god/the supernatural wrong. Science provides answer for things previously attributed to the supernatural; however, science does not disprove the existence of a god(s) rather it dissolves myth in the natural world.

quote:

they dont want to be held accountable

When does any individual prove unaccountable for actions that were not his own? Whether he chooses to believe he has done something wrong is irrelevant; accountability lies within the person responsible for any actions within his power.

quote:

they are raised to believe that there is no God

We are all born Atheists, mind you.