quote:

I'm not trying to force anything on anyone,

Note, I never said you were.

Kate, who is forcing Christianity on you? I'm not trying to force anything on anyone, I'm just responding to things people are saying about it. Maybe your post is pointed at noone in particular?

quote:

I just don't agree with most of the churches beleifs.

I just wanted to clear this up. Being Christian does not mean believing what the "church" believes. There have been many things integrated by the church that don't have any standpoint in the Bible (what Christians should be basing their beliefs on).

And I understand how Christians believe they are right, just like how everyone else thinks that their beliefs are right as well. You can't just single out Chrisians.

Religion is based of morals. Therefore they are very much the same.

I am fine with beleiving in God. Personaly I don't choose to, but if you want to fine. I just don't agree with most of the churches beleifs. I also don't like when people act like since they are Christian, they have to be right. But hey, if you want to be religous, fine, just don't try to force it on me.

My grace? ha! Very limited. I'm a really critical person on myself and other people, and I hold very high expectations. In other words, I let alot of things affect me and I get let down quite a bit by other people and myself. That's just the way I am. I have my faults and I try not to let them affect me, but I fail everytime I try to handle things in my own way. Simply, God's grace is what saves people from sin. His grace is what gives us the ability to forgive wrongdoings against us. Instead of letting your life be controlled by feelings of revenge, hatred, jealousy, etc, you are instead able to look at the person who is persecuting you with love. Believe me, you cannot do this on your own. Self-control only gets you so far. Take it from experience.

And question: If morals are separate from religion, then where did they originate from?

quote:

without God's grace, jealousy and spitefulness would consume my life

What about your own grace? Whay about your own self control? Just what is God's grace? And Genuine, whyl if you did not follow God, would life suddenly be all about you? As a human being you want lots of things for yourself. As a believer, you want salvation and to be closer to God. Just as relevent as wanting food, company and sex. Morals are very seperate from religions. Self control is really is one of the greatest virtues.

Your right clpo13...no one should force their beliefs down your throat...and while I am a born again Christian...I too hate it when Christians try to guilt trip people into getting saved or force them into it. I hate it!!
I have done exactly what you and Holliewood did once before...I have fallen away from my beliefs...I have had doubts and questions.
But I don't want to live a life without him..because without him my life becomes just about me. If my life was just about me where would I be now?? Partying at some club, having se, maybe even being homosexual...this is a life about me!!! I would be serving myself and my flesh. Ooooo believe me I don't want any life without him...

Well that's good, but I think you missed my point. I didn't say you were gonna murder anyone. I said that human nature is full of jealousy, hatred, and spitefulness. I know how terrible people can be, even how terrible I can be, either to other people or to myself. And its really hard to overcome those things. Most people never do, and that is what runs their lives. You become a very bitter person against the world and other people, and for a good reason. And I'm telling you that without God's grace, jealousy and spitefulness would consume my life. I've had enough people in my life stab me in the back to make me hate humanity and never wanna talk to anyone ever again. But as soon as I turn to God, those feelings and thoughts lift. They will always be there, and its my choice whether or not I will let those things get to me or turn them over to God. I have done both, and the former has always led me into more problems.

And if I were to give an answer to my question, I would say believing your doubts leaves you confused and unsatisfied.

That may be true for some, but I've effectively been without God for at least two years and I have yet to murder anyone.

And I don't really have an answer for your last question.

Well, ok, thats your perogative. But, seeing how completely disgusting and ugly people are, I don't trust human nature in the least. I've seen how I am with God and without God and there is a huge difference its shocking. This goes for alot of other people I've grown up with in my church. When you get stuck in your mind and thoughts, it can lead you to some very dark places, and its not even puzzling to me how people can be capable of things like murder, rape, etc. Just remember that your mind is your biggest enemy.

And I just wanna say something about your sig. Its extremely true and I think thats why its important to doubt your beliefs. That way you can be both happy and wise.
But then again, what happens when you start believing in your doubts~ what does that make you?

I don't want to trust in God. I want to trust in myself. I can see myself. I can experience myself. I know I am there. God? The best I have is assurances. No thanks. I am indeed incredibly selfish when it comes to things like this. I want my life to be my own. Completely and totally my own. Thus, no religion suits me. Well, satanism might, but I don't much like that one either.

quote:

I have no desire to be Christian. I tried that, and it didn't work out for me.

See, now this is where the problem lies. This is exactly what I did for years and so many people also do. People are looking for a religion that "suits them" or will change them or make their lives better somehow. This is not how it works. I found out that everytime I went to church or a church function I would always be thinking about myself and waiting for them to impress me and reveal to me something that will change my mind or life or whatever. It never happened! And the thing is, it never will either. Christianity is not about yourself. It is about 2 things: God and the Church. I realized this just recently. I went to Canada for a couple days for a college youth group conference and that realization hit me like a ton of bricks.

I knew that in the past couple years I had been going to church (very rarely too) for my own selfish reasons. And now I finally have realized that by going to church, you are there for the people and for what God's will and plan is for what He wants for you and this world.
This is really not an easy concept to convey and understand. I will probably get a bunch of rolled eyes and "whatever you loony" from people reading this. But, I'm just telling you something I found to be very important and profound to me. What Christianity is about is trusting in God. Without that, you will never be able to understand or see what all these "crazy" Christians are talking about. I have been on both sides of the fence. I started doubting and falling away from my beliefs, and I have also experienced what Christianity preaches, and to be truthful, God couldn't be any more real to me. There are alot of convincing arguments out in the world, but nothing can go against an experience where you know God is real and a part of your life. Take it or leave it.

GE, I apologize if my more recent posts have sounded harsh. I don't mean to criticize anyone for their beliefs, but I take offense easily when someone tells me something I know isn't quite true. For instance, I've been told numerous times that the Bible is the absolute word of God, and so on and so forth. That's nice, but I don't believe it. And I don't want to believe it. I have no desire to be Christian. I tried that, and it didn't work out for me.

To clarify: I have no problem with the beliefs of others, but I absolutely hate it when people try to convert me. There may be a God, but I haven't seen any evidence, physical or otherwise, of one. I hope that makes sense.

And I didn't actually mean hearing some disembodied voice speaking to me. Other people tell me that they feel compelled to do certain things after praying. Or that they get certain feelings, or, as you say, feel someone speaking to them through their heart. I've felt none of that. And believe me, I had faith in God a few years ago. I had no reason to doubt anything I was told in church. More recently, however, I have found that there is more to Christianity than I was told. I began to question my beliefs, which is only natural, of course. However, when my research began to lead to my doubts of the existence of God as he is portrayed in the Bible, I prayed for him to dispel my doubts, to show me that he really did exist. I got no such reassurance. Only more evidence against Christianity and religion in general. To put it quite simply, I lost my faith in God. Completely and utterly lost it. Numerous time since then, I've tried to find it again, but every time, God lets me down. I pray and pray for answers, but get none. Perhaps it's because I expect no answer. Perhaps it's because God isn't there. Who knows? But because I have never felt the presence of God, I am disinclined to believe he is there. That might explain my cynicism, which is sometimes hard to control. Perhaps there is a God and I've just distanced myself from him. Or perhaps there isn't one at all. No one knows for sure, which is one of the reasons why I made the original post, which Kate summed up nicely.

I hope this helps explain my position.

What Clpo is saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is not wheather of not you think there is a God, but if you think you would be a different person if you knew for certain that no one was waiting to smite you.

Personaly, I say no. I don't think it's God that makes me be a decent person. I think it is myself. It is some faith in myself and humanity in general, that I respect human kind enough to be respectful toward them.

HUMANS DO NOT MAKE LIFE........They make other human bodies...God puts the life or the spirit in the body....and for clpo13 I reallY don't understand the purpose of your post...its like your asking people to come and share whether or not we believe in God or not...your original post sounds very friendly and open....but when any person comes on here and disagrees with you, you have an instant rebuttal and want to tell people why there is no God AND COME DOWN ON THEM. Who are you looking to argue with???....I know GOD IS REAL and I also know he loves you....responding to your comment about God never speaking to you in 18 years...I have never actual heard God speak to me like a human would speak to me...but he speaKs to me in my heart when I pray and have faith. When I get peace about things I know he is speaking to me. It takes faith clpo13...and I have a big feeling that you really want to have some faith in God.

ooh ok...no no I understand what you are asking clpo. Its kinda hard to explain, and I'm probably a little slow any way, so no problem.
Umm, so about whether or not having a God existing should matter as far as the issue of having morals. Haha, that probably made no sense either... but let me break your thing down.

quote:

If God truly guides the lives of Christians, shouldn't they always live how God would want them to? And if there is no God guiding the lives of atheists, shouldn't they always be contrary to God's will and live their lives for themselves?

This is kind of hard because you are looking at the concept of God from an individual point of view. There will always be "Christians" or those who supposedly follow God who are very morally inept and, just as well, you can come across many atheists who are very good-willed people.

I think, in my opinion, what matters most is how God (in the many forms) has affected humanity as a whole. Human nature is selfish. Thats just the way we are. We all try to benefit for ourselves. You can help people that you care about, as long as you come first right? Because in so many religions, there are moral codes and guidelines, this has affected cultures as a whole. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to just imagine what humanity would be like if all concepts of God or religion did not exist, because simply, they have existed since the beginning of time, (or at least since anyone can remember). God and religion have been so deeply rooted in society that its just hard to dissect it in the way you are trying to.

The ancient Greeks and Romans believed in many gods, but not all of them had a hand in creating the universe. The ancient Egyptians were the same. The modern Hindus are somewhat similar, although I think they believe each god created a different aspect of the world. I'm a bit shaky on what Hindus believe.

I am a bit guilty of projecting my own beliefs onto my question. I don't believe in a God like the one most religions portray, but in order to make things simpler for other people, I label the creator-figure I do believe in as God. Of course, if I called it the Creator, or something similar, people might still assume I'm talking about their God.

However, this point is moot since I was asking (not very clearly, though) if it would matter if God, being the one who controls or guides our lives, exists or not. Christians, for example, believe that God exists and controls their lives to some extent. Atheists, on the other hand, believe that their lives are completely their own. But are the two really any different? There are selfish Christians and selfless atheists. Shouldn't it always be reversed? If God truly guides the lives of Christians, shouldn't they always live how God would want them to? And if there is no God guiding the lives of atheists, shouldn't they always be contrary to God's will and live their lives for themselves?

The original question wasn't very well-framed, I know. I was just trying to be thought-provoking, which may or may not have worked out as planned.

clpo~
You didn't really specify what "kind" of God you were referring to, so I just told you from my experience why God would matter to me and so many other people. Specifically, the Christian God.

And I guess you are trying to talk about a God in which you separate creator-figure from all-powerful? This is kind of difficult because you are narrowing the different concepts of "God" down to specific ones. Many faiths believe in a God who is the creator and is all-powerful. So, I don't know, it seems that if you are going to tell people to try and imagine life without a God, you have to include everyone's concept of God. If I believed in an all-powerful God, but one that did not create this world and us, then I would wonder, why is there this God that is all-powerful? How did he get all-powerful and where did he come from? Basically, he would be pretty insignificant to us if he had absolutely nothing to do with us or this world. So, from there I can understand why that kind of God would not matter.

And that is why I believe that a God who created this world does matter. Its a far stretch of my imagination to believe the order of things on earth came into being by accident. I pay alot of attention to detail, so to me, its very clear that God had a hand in all of this. And its hard to take that belief away from who I am because thats what the reality around me is.

quote:

God is my everything. I am nothing without him

You were conceived because your parents engaged in sexual intercourse: sperm + egg = baby. If you want to credit anyone for existing, thank your mother and father.

If your parents were (or are, I know not) non-theists, you would still exist today; you simply would not give credit to something that fails to prove itself.

With your beliefs aside, all you're left with is science, or tangible evidence. I am not going to debate with you why I believe god is a myth, but if you put your beliefs aside, you might find a sense of enlightenment.

Don't be such a tool.

I never really understood myself why so many people make the automatic leap from creator-figure to all-mighty lord. They really seem like completely independent ideas.

Anyway, clpo, my views on this are really similar to yours, and you summed up my feelings very well. I don't think I'd be living my life very differently if I got confirmation tomorrow that there definitely was or was not a "God" (unless I got confirmation that Jerry Falwell's God was the real one, but the universe can't possibly suck that much). Though I must admit, if I was able to believe there was an afterlife, my life probably would be affected somehow.

But one thing I learned a while ago, as Holliewood said, is that you can't ask a religious person to separate their independent thoughts from their belief in God. They're basically the same thing.

I think if the whole world got confirmation there was no God, a lot of people would be understandably upset, but life would go on. I think we're wired to look out for each other, with an intuitive knowledge that gaining as many allies as we can in this life benefits us (whether that means our altruistic desires all come down to selfishness is one I'll leave to the philosophers). When we hear stories in the news of lives being saved, we're happy, and when we stories of lives being needlessly lost, we're sad (unless we're insane). Our spiritual beliefs have nothing to do with that.

Anyway, just remember, kiddos, whatever we believe, we're probably wrong.

Not to split hairs, but you're talking about more of a creator-figure, Holliwood. I'm referring to a God that either controls our lives or subtly guides us. I get what you're saying about the universe being too complicated to be a total accident. I believe in some sort of creator as well, though not quite as you do.