Why is religion one of the things used in agruments to decide if something is fair/unfair or right/wrong? I mean I thought that it was up to each individual to figure that out and come up with some kind of conclusion to that themselves instead of always relying on something that is hundreds of thousands of years old and couldn't possibly be accurate or right for this time period. Tell me what you think.

I think its stupid people use religion as their arguement. And you cant prove anything is right or wrong anyway, because everyone has different opinions of whats right and whats wrong.
-Sunset

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Originally posted by iamastar:
Basically, what I am trying to get at is this: We are all human and we all know what is best for us at any given moment in our lives. When we know something is right in every sense of the way in our heart but it goes against just about everything we may believe do you still do it or do you just follow something that may not always be right just because it was written thousands of years ago and the world has changed since then?

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The thing about religion, especially Christianity in my case, is that what you know in your heart is "right" should follow Christianity. It's not the other way around. You shouldn't follow Christianity and do what they say is right. You should do what your heart tells you and if you're a true Christian, your heart will tell you the right thing to do both emotionally and spiritually. That's what my mom always taught me. In the case of other religions, I suppose it works the same way.

(However, you must use your head occasionally and realize that a lot of the Old Testament laws do not apply...you can still make the right decision and be a true Christian and not be following some ancient Old Testament law. That doesn't mean you're "wrong", it just means those are ancient laws that should be disregarded.)

Humans always need something to believe in.
we try to learn from our mistakes, and morals are based on our beliefs. So if your beliefs are in your religion, your religion is the base of your morals.

Basically, what I am trying to get at is this: We are all human and we all know what is best for us at any given moment in our lives. When we know something is right in every sense of the way in our heart but it goes against just about everything we may believe do you still do it or do you just follow something that may not always be right just because it was written thousands of years ago and the world has changed since then?

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Probably referring more to the laws that most Christians themselves have rendered obsolete: laws against wearing blended fabrics, eating shellfish, etc, etc. To the fact that you pick and choose which "sins" are still "sins", yet you continue to preach that everything in the bible is God's law. It makes no logical sense.

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in that case... christians do not consider these laws "obsolete", and if they do they have pretty bad theology. the levitical laws are something that were revealed to the levites, and in parts more specifically the levite priests, not to gentiles (now christians). Christ in the new testament fulfilled the law in that he did not go against any of it in his life so we are no longer judged by the law, but by right standing in christ. as far as what is still abided by from the old testament most bible scholars cosider natural vs. unnatural moral law. if you really want to learn about it, look it up. the only reason it doesn't make logical sense to you is the fact that you take things out of context.

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NO it is not. That is Roman, Greek, Mesopotamian, and Egyptian Law. The Hebrew copied Hammurabi, first king of the Babylonian Empire's famous code of laws, which is much more ancient than the texts of the bible. The Bible was writen in Babylopn (The Old Testement,) and thus the laws of that land, namely, an eye for an eye ext...were passed down. The Hebrews were not the only people to have a code of law, and they definately did not get it on top of a mountain.

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the point in me saying that was not origin of law, but the fact that morals last a long time as pertaining to the original question. i would go into more detail about where the babylonian laws originated, but that would go into trying to prove God, which can't be proved or disproved (as anyone who is knowledgeable in any form of philosophy would admit), so i'm not going to.

I was trying to make my point in two things on my last post:
1. truths that that bible preaches, compared to previously made comments about it which were incorrect.
2. religion is brought into moral discussions because morals are in religion and these morals have lasted quite a long time and are still applicable

i'm in no way trying to prove God, or prove that the bible is right in this discussion. I just wanted to answer the question asked and not allow unbiblical statements about the bible to be made.

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yeah this is all Old Testament Law that is instituted into about everyone in american culture's moral beliefs, christian or non. Just because you don't believe in religions as a whole doesn't mean they don't teach good morals. get over yourself.

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NO it is not. That is Roman, Greek, Mesopotamian, and Egyptian Law. The Hebrew copied Hammurabi, first king of the Babylonian Empire's famous code of laws, which is much more ancient than the texts of the bible. The Bible was writen in Babylopn (The Old Testement,) and thus the laws of that land, namely, an eye for an eye ext...were passed down. The Hebrews were not the only people to have a code of law, and they definately did not get it on top of a mountain.

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you may think as a nonchristian that this is still a terrible unjust thing to do, but the justice of God is something humans, including christians can't understand.

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This is exactly what I am talking about. It is dangerous to say that a law came from heaven, because people will say we can't change it, and that it is still just, though we cannot see it. That is how the middle ages began.

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relying on something that is hundreds of thousands of years old and couldn't possibly be accurate or right for this time period.
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are you kidding me?

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Are you? what about slavery, wife beating, divorce, child laws, land disputes, and family law. This is not the backwater society Isreal was before the Romans came, thins is 21st century America, though I can see a similarity in the lack of mental refining in some of the people.

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but the justice of God is something humans, including christians can't understand.

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That's not a legitimate point. It's a logical fallacy known as an ad hoc argument. Nice try though.

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are you kidding me?
not killing, not commiting adultery, the "golden rule", honoring your parents, not stealing, not giving false testimonies, not prostituting yourself, not having sex with animals, not marrying immediate family members, following government law.... yeah this is all Old Testament Law that is instituted into about everyone in american culture's moral beliefs, christian or non. Just because you don't believe in religions as a whole doesn't mean they don't teach good morals. get over yourself.

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Probably referring more to the laws that most Christians themselves have rendered obsolete: laws against wearing blended fabrics, eating shellfish, etc, etc. To the fact that you pick and choose which "sins" are still "sins", yet you continue to preach that everything in the bible is God's law. It makes no logical sense.

"Get over yourself"? How about you take the plank out of your eye first?

Wow savedbygrace you did a pretty good job on that one. I agree with most of what you said but you were a little unclear on the slavery thing. maybe because it was a bit of a rant i do not know. I think the thing with slavery is more that the bible calls us to be slaves and servants and not just because God was talking to the jews. goodluck.

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Morallity and self control does not de-individualize itself. But the Bible preaches that people should not ask questions, stay in order, and always listen to the Pope. Not to mention the fact it was used to justify slavery and serfdom, and still could be, if those were not bad words today. Also, one cannot change the bible or go against it, because to go against it would be to go against god. Bad Idea for a society where choice is key.

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Actually the bible says reaccurngly to ask questions: read the old testament, there are more people than i feel like listing that question God and he answers them, and in no way are they deemed wrong. david and job are two prime examples of this. in the new testament questioning is quite promoted. testing oens faith is a big theme throughout scripture. the only time questioning is really looked down upon is from the pharisees (along with other high priests and scholars) asked things to trap jesus, they were so legalistic in all their questioning that is caused them to stray away from what they were being legalistic about.

the pope.... not mentioned in scripture at all. the pope is based on catholic doctrine, not the bible. catholics may argue that the doctrine is scriptural, but their justification for saying so really sucks.

justifying slavery... not really. this is an idea that the media along with nonchristians that "read" the bible have taken extremely out of context, just like hatred toward jews. nowhere does it justify slaves... it talks about treatment of slaves.... slaves were instated by the governement of the time. and i know everyone wants to say "but the old testament says to beat your slaves" and this is why.... this scripture at the time was revealed to the jews (the chosen people of yaweh (the now christian God)), the law stated this in order to cause the jews to be tested in their faith towards God through hardships. read stuff in context. you may think as a nonchristian that this is still a terrible unjust thing to do, but the justice of God is something humans, including christians can't understand.

yeah... and changing scripture is against God. get over it. molding things in scripture to fit your own ideas is sin, plain out, no apologies.

and as far as the original question asked goes....

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relying on something that is hundreds of thousands of years old and couldn't possibly be accurate or right for this time period.

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are you kidding me?
not killing, not commiting adultery, the "golden rule", honoring your parents, not stealing, not giving false testimonies, not prostituting yourself, not having sex with animals, not marrying immediate family members, following government law.... yeah this is all Old Testament Law that is instituted into about everyone in american culture's moral beliefs, christian or non. Just because you don't believe in religions as a whole doesn't mean they don't teach good morals. get over yourself.

Morallity and self control does not de-individualize itself. But the Bible preaches that people should not ask questions, stay in order, and always listen to the Pope. Not to mention the fact it was used to justify slavery and serfdom, and still could be, if those were not bad words today. Also, one cannot change the bible or go against it, because to go against it would be to go against god. Bad Idea for a society where choice is key.

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Originally posted by northstar316:
even if it keeps them down as individuals.

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How does morality or self-control in general de-individualize us?

Self-Control and morality make us stronger indivuals because it keeps our lives from being dominated by the things that are immoral or that which we would seek to have control over.

But is religion everything? Just because you have a belief in a higher power does that mean that your life is more complete or more worthy of anybody elses just because other people don't believe as they do? Without religion or the government or any other outside influences could anyone really come upe with a compelling argument in which these things may be brought up?

"Religion is good stuff for keeping the people in order" -Napolean Boneparte

When religion is added to morals, there is a higher athority, and the home for an otherworldly reward, and thus the people are more easily sewduced into the vices of a moral system, even if it keeps them down as individuals. It also tells of rewards that it cannot give, and is therefore unjust and religion should have no right to set a moral standard

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As for the boy- girl situation, if you truely think that you two are compatable and are meant to be, than somehow you will be together. ANd if he dosen't realize what's in front of him, than do you really need him?

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-snickers- I won't go and make any really mean cracks, but that made me laugh. Hard.

As far as religion being used as the basis of arguments, I couldn't agree with you more, Star. Religion differs so much from person to person. If there isn't one universal religion (I can hear the Christians gasping now, sorry kiddies, but Christianity is not the religion of the world) then using any single religion to base a decision on is unstable. For example: the opinion on homosexual marriage is based largely on what religion teaches the opposing individual. For people who do not share the same religious beliefs, making a constitutional amendment sounds ridiculous.

And then there is the whole superiority issue of one religion over another. Religion and fact are such a mess.

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As for the boy- girl situation, if you truely think that you two are compatable and are meant to be, than somehow you will be together. ANd if he dosen't realize what's in front of him, than do you really need him?

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Are you talking about the "What happens when the one boy you know is right for you is with the one girl you know is wrong for him" question? That is my signature. That wasn't apart of the actually post.

Religion is a good guide; but life expirience is better.

Well, the thing is that you are supposed to know right from wrong, but religon gives something more to believe in and it gives you someone to look to for guidence. Whether it be Buhdda or God or someone else, they are supposed to give you an idea of what they did so that you can follow in their footsteps.

As for the boy- girl situation, if you truely think that you two are compatable and are meant to be, than somehow you will be together. ANd if he dosen't realize what's in front of him, than do you really need him?