Personally, I love free gifts. That's why salvation is cool, its free.
Lets say I get you a present. I bring it to you, and I hold it out for you to take. But you don't reach out and take it. So, as I am still holding the present, whos is it? Mine or yours? Well, it's still mine until you take it.
I think that's kinda the way it is for salvation. God got us a gift: forgiveness, payment for any and all sin, eternal life with him. So, when we hear about it, it's like God holding it out to us, for us to take.
But, if we don't accept the gift, it's like not accepting him.
Eternal punishment is not something God likes. He wants to save us from it, but we have to accept the gift.

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God doesn't force people to follow him.

I beg to differ. How do you then explain all the threats of eternal punishment for not following God(TM)? It seems to me, God(TM) is up there saying, "You have two choices: Me or my old pal the Devil. If you don't pick me, you're damned. Sorry, sucker."

Guess I got a lil excited
Hard to find open-minded discussion among my peers sometimes, so when I found this place I jumped on it.

Tip to the newb (after reading several of your posts): Read some of the other responses in threads before you repeat what everyone else has said.

Also, check out the "Welcome, newbies" thread and our handy user's guide in Randomsity.

Welcome!

Actually, God and Satan aren't equal.
God is greater. So, why hasn't God destroyed Satan already?
God wants a relationship with humanity. He has given us free choice, the choice to choose to follow him, or to follow Satan. When we are born, we are born with a sinful nature (started way back in the garden when Adam and Eve chose to throw their lot in with Satan by trusting him instead of God about the fruit).
But, during the course of our lives, we have a choice. We can accept God's free gift, and he gives us salvation and freedom. But if God went and destroyed Satan now, there wouldn't be the other option, and we wouldn't have a choice. God doesn't force people to follow him.
Oh, and Michael, the archangel, I don't think that's Lucifer... Michael led the God-loyal angels against Lucifer and the angels following Lucifer.

Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Christianity is polytheistic. I'm merely pointing out that Christianity shows signs of dualism. Take that however you want.

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Originally posted by zzyzx:
That's another story I don't beleive is in the Bible. Jesus's going into hell and saving people. I think it's reffered to as the Harrowing of Hell. Euterpe(or anyone else), do you know where that story came from?

He didn't go to hell to save anyone. That's a common misconception. He went because he now truly understood God's word and went to tell those who are permanently in hell so they could know the truth, because Jesus felt even condemned souls should know the truth of God's word.

They weren't saved after that. They were still in hell. I always got the feeling from the bible that everyone traveled through hell before reaching heaven. I forgot why.

And, as I pointed out in the "Get Out! Leave my garden" thread...Satan could very well not even exist.

I've come under the recent notion that perhaps he was created simply so there would be a dualism. Satan physically represents all that God wishes us to abstain from. So maybe he's not even real and he's just there, playing the role of boogeyman. So that's why God hasn't destroyed him: Satan is not the source of all evil but the representation of all evil and therefore must remain to dissuade us.

Celtic: As for God not getting rid of evil - it's called a test and the test is life.

But that's a whole 'nother topic. Regardless, Christianity teaches that Satan does not hold up to scratch when compared to God and that Satan is not a deity himself. Therefore Christianity - monotheisitic.

i didnt say anything about jesus saving anyone ever. I never even mentioned the name jesus

I absolutely 100% agree with worthwaiting. I was going to hold out on this discussion because I figured that the idea would crash fast and hard. I guess it didnt

In the bible it states that God can overthrow satan anytime, and when he choses to do it, it then will be done. There is no real struggle (says the bible), god is just making it seem like there is one so he can weed out the nonbelievers etc. , and then judgement day happens and god rocks satan and all evil doers yada yada yada....

basically the bible is saying that good and God trumph satan and evil. they are not equal

and in the ten commandments, mind you the ONLY testament in writing from God, there is a commandment that prohibits the worshiping of any other God, diety, idol. So even God himself decreed that his religion be monotheistic.

regardless anyway you cut it satan isnt a God in christianity. Dualism does exist, but that is not the only criteria for polytheism.

That's another story I don't beleive is in the Bible. Jesus's going into hell and saving people. I think it's reffered to as the Harrowing of Hell. Euterpe(or anyone else), do you know where that story came from?

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Originally posted by clpo13:

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surprise, surprise -- devil worshipping isnt Christian. =)

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Yes, there are devil worshippers, clpo, but we (Christians) don't consider them Christians

Both statements are true. But Christianity, Islam, and Judaism still hold that God and the devil exist whether a person admits it or not. So the devil worshippers may not be Christian, but they're worshipping a Christian being, aka the devil.

I am not denying the dualism in Christianity.

I am denying the fact that there are 2 gods...because Satan isn't a god.

Therefore, Christianity is monotheistic.

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Originally posted by Bushsupporter:
They are not equal. Yes God could eradicate evil and in fact will at the end of time. But he cast Satan out of heaven and onto the earth and he expected us to be perfect, which we couldn't. Jesus was sent down to die for our sins, in fact in the three days that he was missing before being ressurected, he was in Hell fighting Satan and sacrificing himself for us.

Could God MAKE us believe in him and renounce Satan, yes. But it is muck mor sweet if we deny evil on our own to join him.

It is not a Dualism. I cannot speak for the Muslims, but Christians and Jews are monotheistic.

Jesus didn't fight Satan. Jesus died, went to "hell" and told the truth of God to those in spiritual prison, namely those who had been killed in the great flood with the ark and so on.

And it's not as if when you denounce God you embrace Satan. They are not equals. Satan does not rule over hell; he's there being punished just as anyone who enters hell is. He had a chance to be with God and refused Him, so he is forced now to be in hell and never return to Paradise.

And to address Celtic's comment about God making us perfect, God did make us perfect, in a sense.

God making us "perfect" goes with the theory that evil is not something you're born with. We are born perfect, and corrupted by our environment and ourselves. God trusted us, and..well, we failed. But with every birth of every new generation, comes the opportunity for each person to end corruption. That's what God's hopin' for. That we turn the tide of our own history for the better, if not just because it's the right thing to do, but because you can get to Paradise.

Lol, at least, that's what I got from years of sitting on that wretched pew. Always made my *** hurt.

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They are not equal. Yes God could eradicate evil and in fact will at the end of time. But he cast Satan out of heaven and onto the earth and he expected us to be perfect, which we couldn't. Jesus was sent down to die for our sins, in fact in the three days that he was missing before being ressurected, he was in Hell fighting Satan and sacrificing himself for us.

Then why hasn't he eradicated evil? And he may not, for he may not even exist.

If he expected us to be perfect and we aren't, then he's not as wise, he should have known we're not perfect.

Where the hell does it say Jesus fought Satan? I spent 6 years suffering through Catholic school and never heard that story.

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But wait! Satan isn't equal to God, you say. Yes he is. If God was more powerful than Satan, wouldn't God be able to wipe out Satan and evil altogether? God's whole purpose is to rid the world of evil. But God obviously can't do that because we do have evil. So Satan must be equal in power to God. The two are trapped in a deadlock, which is how dualisms are.

Interesting, isn't it?

Well no, not really.

They are not equal. Yes God could eradicate evil and in fact will at the end of time. But he cast Satan out of heaven and onto the earth and he expected us to be perfect, which we couldn't. Jesus was sent down to die for our sins, in fact in the three days that he was missing before being ressurected, he was in Hell fighting Satan and sacrificing himself for us.

Could God MAKE us believe in him and renounce Satan, yes. But it is muck mor sweet if we deny evil on our own to join him.

It is not a Dualism. I cannot speak for the Muslims, but Christians and Jews are monotheistic.

Catholics in particular seem to at times worship the Virgin Mary and Saints more than Christ.

Thanks Euterpe, that was helpful, I had been wondering about that for a while.

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surprise, surprise -- devil worshipping isnt Christian. =)

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Yes, there are devil worshippers, clpo, but we (Christians) don't consider them Christians

Both statements are true. But Christianity, Islam, and Judaism still hold that God and the devil exist whether a person admits it or not. So the devil worshippers may not be Christian, but they're worshipping a Christian being, aka the devil.

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Originally posted by zzyzx:
Are there really devil-worshippers? I'm pretty sure they were just made up as propaganda by the Christians a few hundred years ago (Idiot teens and serial killers don't count as devil-worshippers).
And where is the story of Lucifer's rebellion against God? I don't think it's in the Bible.

It isn't, at least not really. Lucifer is a story from I think two passages, and the story of Michael the archangel.

Isaiah 14:12-15:
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

13. You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

14. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

15. But you are brought down to the grave, o the depths of the pit.

Ezekiel 28:12-19
12. The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.

14. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

15. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

16. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

17. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18. By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

19. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' "

And finally Revelation 12:7-9 (This goes more along the lines of Michael the archangel's [who is basically Lucifer, I guess] rebellion.

7. And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

8. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

9. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Hope that helped.

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Can't you read? See here:


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The good god is generally the one that's worshippped the most.


There are people who worship the Devil, though. It's called--surprise, surprise--devil-worship.

surprise, surprise -- devil worshipping isnt Christian. =)

and yes, zzyzx, there are really devil worshippers. I have the pleasure to go to school with some of them....