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Atheists don't believe in god(s). I don't understand the whole unicorn and elves thing and how it relates to athiests... but they don't believe in anything except facts... it's as simple as that.

That was, in fact, just my point. However, to view atheism as a positive belief that there is no God is a fallacy - you cannot believe in something's non-existence; you can only deny that it exists. Basically, the proof of God is something that believers need to provide, and the atheist need not provide evidence for his non-existence. So, just to clarify, I am agreeing with you, Wolfie.

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oh you forgot atheistic society in that lang list of yours.

The atheists dont know how to interpret anything exept a lab sheet or magazine.

I'm not entirely sure how either of these sentences demonstrate an argument, Romashu. What exactly is the problem with secular society? It is the basis of Western democracy, codified in the Constitution of the USA and in the various governments of Western Europe.

And I'm not entirely convinced that your injunction about atheists being able to interpret anything is entirely fair. As an atheist studying English at the University of Cambridge, I find this rather insulting as well as nonsensical.

Although, since you are willing to cede that atheists can interpret lab sheets, I do rather have to question your denial of the evidence that scientists have provided for evolution and against intelligent design that you abuse elsewhere, the contradiction being that atheists can interpret lab sheets and little else against your denial that atheist science explains commonly held, indeed, almost universally held, scientific theories.

well apparently according to you christians are nicer people thanks to god so im glad I have him.

lol, thank you for reiterating what i just said.

polly want a cracker.

oh you forgot atheistic society in that lang list of yours.

The atheists dont know how to interpret anything exept a lab sheet or magazine.

Atheists don't believe in god(s). I don't understand the whole unicorn and elves thing and how it relates to athiests... but they don't believe in anything except facts... it's as simple as that.

The golden rule is the only good thing the bible teaches us. S&m well people want to be beaten and others are willing to oblige. Plus though S&m can be a lifestyle for a few people generally that stuff just stays in the boudouire and doesn't enter into everyday life. lolz

The bible has so many inaccuracies. Lol. my bf's stepdad has 40 1 hour long tapes listing all of the decrepancies in it. Oh the enlightenment.

That's not to say the bible is wrong for all people but people are generally idiots who do not know how to interpret anything which is why we live in a sexist, racist, homophobic, war monger society. ^.^ thanks bible!

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Atheism is a belief that there is no God.

Just in case no ones been over this, and only if they haven't, this is a falsity. Atheism is not a belief about anything; it is by definition a-theism, which is to say absence of a theological belief. So I'm afraid this tottering edifice totters too much. This is a common mistake based on a misconception of the scientific enterprise.

On the other hand, if atheists were to accept that they positively believed in no god, then they would have to accept such a vast range of things that their heads would pop - the existence of unicorns, stones that come to life, elves, people who can change shape and so on, due to the physical limitations of not being able to encounter every horse, stone, grotto and person in the whole universe.

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You must remember, there was a time before the Bible. Entire civilizations were founded (Like the Aztecs and the Inca) without knowing a single bit of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. They also prospered in to great, civilized nations. (Although behind the times by several hundreds years, which was more due to terrain then anything else). We have seen entire cultures without God, and they have all been considerate, giving, and cooperative. That is the true heart of man.



Yeah but what do all those nations have in common? They have all been destroyed or conquered by other nations. It is amazing how the Jews, after all they have been through, still have the ability to come together 1000s of years later to form Israel with one of the strongest armies in the world

Just by the by, this rather bizarre argument seems to support the conclusion that any nation currently extant must be monotheistic or have conquered by a monotheism, which begs questions about India, China, Nepal etc.

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How could God have not created Satan as a bad angel?

Who must have created Pride, or at least the capability for Pride, to begin with?

In fact, though I am essentially in agreement with your position, God didn't create Satan to be an evil angel. That is a misconception - Satan was originally just an angel, in the history of the concept of Satan. A Shatan, or something like that, was an angel that played the role of devil's advocate, designed to test an individual, and so appears in the Book of Job. It is a recent (i.e. in the last two thousand years or so) warping of a much older religious concept that goes back to the eclectic roots of Judaism to say that Satan is some kind of tempter or indeed in anyway evil; the people to blame are the Zoroastrians. Anyway, I'd recommend Elaine Pagels book 'The Origin of Satan' on the matter - quite an interesting read.

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Why is there evil? Possibly because it is the hard times that makes us stronger. Living an "easy" life wont teach you anything. It wont give you any backbone.

There is a slight hole in your argument here, which is that you only need 'backbone' to cope with the ramifications of evil in the world. If there was no evil, you wouldn't need to be made stronger - things would be easy. And isn't 'testing our faith' a rather flimsy reason for allowing the death and torture of millions of people before the possibility of their salvation - i.e. those Aztecs, Incans and Chinese type civilisations you dismissed earlier. Judaism is archaeologically datable (or at least a King of Israel is datable) to around the 10th century BCE and older civilizations who left behind written texts date back to the 27th century BCE. So not only did God create the entire universe for humanity, but only for the humans that have lived since the 10th century BCE. This may be just me, but I'm convinced that this is entirely fair.

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Clearly, there are only two options. If a person refuses to choose Jesus as their saviour then they are choosing Satan. There are no gray areas or alternative paths.

Why not? You seem to be crediting Satan with a hell of a lot of choices - i.e an almost infinite number of possible choices.

Again by the by, have you ever wondered if you aren't being taken in by Satan? What if Christ wasn't the Messiah but the greatest trick ever played by Satan - i.e. converting millions from Judaism to a false understanding of God that ended up creating (probably) more dissension and death than any other force in human history.

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I came to say I didn't care if apathy was a bad thing, but I think that comment would be very outdated (and a little too punny) for this thread.

Why isn't there more writing like this on this thread?

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Wolfie, if you were born blind, would you stop loving your mom? I mean, you can still hear her and feel her love for you and know what she does for you. God is like that.

Freud would have had a field day. "Ocean-like feeling"....

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You doubt that the people of churches would have wanted us to love others as ourself. That is called the Golden Rule and it is the only good thing that the Bible teaches.

Is it? I mean, is the Golden Rule really all that brilliant? Isn't it defeated by the sadist-masochist problem?

Plus I'd probably say that God was abstract rather than faceless, being a concept and not a person. And if God is a person, then viz. Epicurus already quoted (and also Anselm of Canterbury, if we wanted to drag him in) then he isn't God.

That was refreshing.

sorry about my pitiful post, had to leave in a rush otherwise i was going to be late... and now i can't just edit the post either because youthnoise is retarded like that.

Well, first off what the hell are you talking about. You doubt that the people of churches would have wanted us to love others as ourself. That is called the Golden Rule and it is the only good thing that the Bible teaches. Now I know you're completely clueless to your own religion.

And god is faceless. Have you ever seen him/her?

Also you're whole blindness mother thing makes no sense because other people besides the blind child can see the mother but no one has seen or heard from a god.

believe me if god or whatever came down to me and did some crazy shit i would be christian or whatever it wants me to be, however i will not blindly follow any religion because who knows if any of them are right?

So you think all of the recorded torture in churches, the inquistion and the crusades just didn't happen. lol

You're whole mother thing makes no sense whatsoever. A mother exists obviously because the "blind baby" would hear her and feel her with its 5 senses. "God" does none of these

Alrighty so if you choose to be a sheep under a faceless shepherd than that's your problem. ^.^[/QUOTE]
Wolfie, if you were born blind, would you stop loving your mom? I mean, you can still hear her and feel her love for you and know what she does for you. God is like that. I'm not saying that you have to believe us and I'm sorry if anybody's ever tried to force you into this.
'nother thing - I've done a little research on churches throughout the ages, and I doubt that those people would have wanted us to think you should love others as yourself.

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Originally posted by Shade:
It's just a belief people hold. A belief is just that: right or wrong, it could be either, but it won't stop people from thinking that way. Instead of attacking atheists, maybe you should try a different approach, no?

I second that idea.
If you want to beleive, then you can, but you don't have to force everyone else to beleive as well. You don't attack us, and we won't attack your relegion. What we think is none of your buisness, and it never will be.

Myvoicecounts- that is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard. "If you choose not to believe in him, than that's your problem." That is what all athiests wish Christians would say but nooo they have to convince, convert and crucify others into following their god.

Alrighty so if you choose to be a sheep under a faceless shepherd than that's your problem. ^.^

There is a god!!!! If you choose not to believe in him then thats your problem. Take that Athiests!!!!!!!

you know what. I think I have decided to do something. Chirstians preach that other normal thinkers "don't understand the Bible" or else they act like the Bible is source of facts.(LMAO.) Alrighty, I think I'm going to give everyone a rude, unholy wake-up call.

THE BIBLE IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD. maybe the original bible was, however this book has been changed so many times that who knows what the hell was written in the time of Jesus.

First off there were the Dark Ages where everyone except the Christian church and rich people were illiterate. Do any of you understand how easy it was for the Church to change everything in the Bible. No one knows how to read so basically the church rewrote it so that way they could take over. Don't believe me that Church would ever do something as unholy as change "the word of god" well look at the evidence of the thousands persecuted and tortured by those holy and gentle monks and abbots. The first time the general public was even able to get a copy of the bible was after the printing press was invented, some 1,500 years after it was written.

Now I'm not saying that the original book wasn't written by the divines, however the book we call the Bible today has endured 2000 years of changes, human changes. Perhaps this is why the book contains events that defy the laws of physics (these laws, i don't care who you are or what you believe, are NEVER EVER broken.) or maybe it could explain why the Bible is holed with the teachings of oppression and forced religion.

I'm just letting everyone know that just because you're parents or your peers or your teachers say that something is absolute like god doesn't necessarily mean it is true. There is no harm in thinking for yourself, but if you prefer being a sheep and listening to what everyone else tells you to do then go ahead and keep being oppressed by a book that was written and consistently changed over a period of 2000 years. I'm just letting everyone know you aren't following the words of God you're following the words of oppressive church officials.

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To paraphrase Epicurus,
If your God is able, but not willing to overcome evil, then is he a loving God?
If your gods is willing, but not able, then is he really an all powerful God?
If your God is willing, and able to overcome evil, then why do we suffer so?
And if your God isn't willing, and isn't able, why do we call him God to begin with?

I would like to help my little cousins be successful, and not suffer a minute of pain. But I know that if they have a painless life, they won't learn or grow. Doesn't it seem extremely likely that a loving and powerful God thinks along the same vein?

Alrighty now that I've lost even more faith in the ability of humans... How can you compare the questionable existence of god to a heater? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever because a scientist wouldn't try to disprove a heater is hot because he knows it is. uber duh. Scientists aren't here to go around disproving people's beliefs (that's for religious nutcases) they are here to get all the facts. To know everything that CAN be known. Why is this difficult to understand? Oh I know because some of the facts that scientists happen to discover could be seen as evidence against the existance of your god, well that's not why they were found. Science only cares about things that can be proven, not about disproving idealoligies that most of the world holds.

Does no one here know ANYTHING about the physics of the universe? The big bang is NOT like blowing up a garage and getting a lexus. The big bang was extremely chaotic at first but as proven by fratacal theory, from chaos comes order. Do you know how long after the big bang occurred that the universe had to create itself? DOES ANYONE HERE KNOW HOW OLD JUST THE SOLAR SYSTEM IS? 14 billionnnnnn years old, for just our solar system, do you understand how much can change in that time? Here's an example you might understand: The grand canyon 10,000 years ago did not exist, than, due to slow erosion by water it became the massive gorge that it is. 10,000 years is a very very very short time in relavance to the overall time line of our universe. So you're trying to say that after the big bang everything was just "poof" here. What is with people and this idea that things just appear? Poof from god here we are! poof from the big bang here we are? GOD people watch discovery channel sometimes.

Also I would like to ask anyone here if they actually know the theories behind the big bang rather than just assuming it was an explosion because of the word "bang" in it.

I came to say I didn't care if apathy was a bad thing, but I think that comment would be very outdated (and a little too punny) for this thread.

Whoa!! You leave the room for a couple of days, and look out. Okay first things first. CS you said, "A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Adolf Hitler." That's true a man could not pay for your crimes against God or anyone elses for that matter. Only someone void of any sin. They would have to be pure. Only Jesus Christ fulfills that requirement. And to tell God I'm sorry isn't enough. If Jesus pays your fine, then you go back to your sin you are guilty once again. Then the whole process begins again. This would be the main hang-up among Christians. From alter to pew to alter to pew wearing out both the pastor and the carpet. The Bible clearly states two different parts. It is sin and sins. First our sins are washed away by Christ blood that was shed on the cross. Therfore paying the penalty for sins. This is the part most people are familiar with. The second is sin. Everyone that is born of man has a sin problem. That's not the act of sinning. Its the very thing that dwells in the hearts of man. The ability to sin. Paul wrote that the good he wanted to do he couldn't, but the evil he didn't want to do that is what he done. It is in the very nature of man to sin. Now the question arises, "How to I get rid of my nature to sin?" That is found in the cross. We are crucified with Christ. It is not I who lives it is Christ within me. My hands wants to steal, thats too bad I am dead. Only Christ is alive. My very nature is dead, because I have now giving myself totally to Christ. Watchman Nee said it this way, "The thief's hands are unemployed." I challenge you to read the Book of John, and the Book of Romans. You can go online at www.bible.com, then click on Bible Resources(on left side of page, then go to Read the Bible, then click on the translation (New Living Translation is my favorite), then scroll down to John. I think that what I'm saying would become more clear after reading these two books.

The second thing is this, God did not create sin man did. In the beginning earth was perfect, then man messed it up by disobeying God. There was no sickness, no poverty, no war, no death. All these things entered in when man sinned against his Creator.

The third thing is Satan was not evil to begin with. He was good. Here are some quotes from the book of Ezekiel about Lucifer: “You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty." "Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone—red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone, blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper, blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald—all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created." “You were blameless in all you didfrom the day you were created until the day evil was found in you. Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. Your wisdom was corrupted by your love of splendor. So I threw you to the ground" No, God didn't make Satan evil, he came up with it all on his own. And just as Satan was thrown out because of pride, so will all those who become prideful and exalt themselves above God. You say I have a mind that can think, and God doesn't make sense, but what you should be saying is I have a mind that can think, how wonderful and amazing is my Creator who gave me the abilty to think.

I hope I covered everything. You all be blessed, may God prosper you, and give you peace.

Actually Shade you are right about that. I didn't go about that argument the right way. Clearly, there are only two options. If a person refuses to choose Jesus as their saviour then they are choosing Satan. There are no gray areas or alternative paths. Some people think that it's ridiculous that Christians worship another "man" but really whats so bad about worshiping a creature of love? Especially when you know that He is no creature at all but actually the spirit of the One who made you?

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First of all, God did not originally create Satan as a "bad angel."

Why not? If Satan-el was created to fulfill a purpouse, why not that one? Not to "make a point," but to make a choice.

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You must remember, there was a time before the Bible. Entire civilizations were founded (Like the Aztecs and the Inca) without knowing a single bit of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. They also prospered in to great, civilized nations. (Although behind the times by several hundreds years, which was more due to terrain then anything else). We have seen entire cultures without God, and they have all been considerate, giving, and cooperative. That is the true heart of man.

Yeah but what do all those nations have in common? They have all been destroyed or conquered by other nations. It is amazing how the Jews, after all they have been through, still have the ability to come together 1000s of years later to form Israel with one of the strongest armies in the world. I wonder where they got that from....

We honestly can't fully comprehend God. For one, he is a spirit, not of this world and not of our limitations. For two, He is a strong enough spirit to create an entire world and fill it with 11 million different species of life. So with that, a person can't describe God's intentions down to the very last detail. But with His Word (The Bible), we can at least try and grasp how He feels about us and what He wants us to do. Why is there evil? Possibly because it is the hard times that makes us stronger. Living an "easy" life wont teach you anything. It wont give you any backbone. And I think a major reason why God allows evil is because He wants to test our faith. When the going gets tough, only the Tough get going...everyone else gives up as if nothing is possible. Besides, the devil is supposed to die anyway, and all those who love and appreciate God will live in eternal bliss.

I define Jesus Christ as true love basically because he was willing to die for all men. Whether you believe in His divinity or not, that is what his intentions were. Would you have allowed the Romans and Pharisees to put you on that cross?