How could God have not created Satan as a bad angel?

Who must have created Pride, or at least the capability for Pride, to begin with?

To paraphrase Epicurus,
If your God is able, but not willing to overcome evil, then is he a loving God?
If your gods is willing, but not able, then is he really an all powerful God?
If your God is willing, and able to overcome evil, then why do we suffer so?
And if your God isn't willing, and isn't able, why do we call him God to begin with?

As long as you define Jesus as the only definition of true love, you're always going to be on a "shortage of true love".

You must remember, there was a time before the Bible. Entire civilizations were founded (Like the Aztecs and the Inca) without knowing a single bit of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. They also prospered in to great, civilized nations. (Although behind the times by several hundreds years, which was more due to terrain then anything else). We have seen entire cultures without God, and they have all been considerate, giving, and cooperative. That is the true heart of man.

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More so, according to your own faith, who designed humanity? According to Genesis, it was God.
According to your own faith, who designed the world? The universe? The very foundation that you claim all of this is based on? God. Then who must have created the devil that so fills man with sin? God.
And therefore who, by extension or indirectly, must have created sin? God.

First of all, God did not originally create Satan as a "bad angel." God's intentions are always for the best. It was Satan's pride that turned himself into, well, Satan. Yes God has the power to overcome Satan at any time. However I think it is safe to say that the reason God doesn't just get rid of Satan altogether is because for one, it's a part of God's plan to wait to kill Satan, and two, it's basically like God is trying to prove a point. The point being that without God, men are just wretched, prideful, and barbaric animals living it out for themselves. I understand that not everyone is selfish and inconsiderate but there are plenty enough people like that in the world that if God lifted his hands off people's hearts, they'd tear each other to shreds in only a matter of short time. I'm sure you can agree, this world is just about hopeless. There isn't too many people who know what real love is anymore. Jesus really is the only definition of true love.

And also, usually people who kill millions, aka psychopaths, aren't going to accept Jesus as their savior. I mean yeah they have the chance to but by the time they decide to commit mass murder I am pretty sure they wont change for God.

You did, but the nature of Christ is to work by grace. Note that in the Bible it is said that ultimate Judgment is coming, where El as a whole will be judging (aka: Rev/the end times), including Christ. Also note that time is different for God or those in the spiritual realms. Where they do not have a physical body to manifest or maintain, time will flow differently, a moment focused forever on itself or time passing too fast to see. God is Judge, but this age is Jesus', the non-wrath loving aspect of El, such is his purpouse, and such is God's intent to let him have precedence over the Judgment, as a middle man between the guilty and the Judge. I guess...in a way it could be difficult to understand, but it just takes a little warping of your perspective to see it. Different thinking patterns is all.

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Originally posted by Shade:

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Yet you purpose that your Jesus Christ will forgive anything, so long as you're willing to say, "My bad God. Looks like I shouldn't have killed those millions. I'm a sinner, but I accept you and your son, so we're all good, right?". God therefore must not be just, as he does not punish sin.

Please remember that, as a triple diety, each aspect of the Christian God is different in nature, and while they are part of each other, they act independent of each other. Just something I think has been under explained in this debate.

I believe I accurately separated them in my above sentence, if you're directing it at me.

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Yet you purpose that your Jesus Christ will forgive anything, so long as you're willing to say, "My bad God. Looks like I shouldn't have killed those millions. I'm a sinner, but I accept you and your son, so we're all good, right?". God therefore must not be just, as he does not punish sin.

Please remember that, as a triple diety, each aspect of the Christian God is different in nature, and while they are part of each other, they act independent of each other. Just something I think has been under explained in this debate.

A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Adolf Hitler. A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Stalin. A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Pol Pot, Augusto Pinochet, or Bela Kun. In any conception of justice that has existed on this world, these crimes deserved either imprisonment for life or, by the standards of others, death. No amount of money would undo what they have done.

Yet you purpose that your Jesus Christ will forgive anything, so long as you're willing to say, "My bad God. Looks like I shouldn't have killed those millions. I'm a sinner, but I accept you and your son, so we're all good, right?". God therefore must not be just, as he does not punish sin.

You're essentially saying that I broke the law, and Jesus Christ helped me get away with it. Once again, in any conception of justice that has ever existed in this world, that makes Jesus Christ as much an accomplice to the crime as I am.

More so, according to your own faith, who designed humanity? According to Genesis, it was God.
According to your own faith, who designed the world? The universe? The very foundation that you claim all of this is based on? God. Then who must have created the devil that so fills man with sin? God.
And therefore who, by extension or indirectly, must have created sin? God.

Your God therefore punishes people for "flaws" in his own creation, that he must have made to begin with. How is this the actions of a just God?

I know this must be hard for you to understand, you must have been told this from the cradle. However, the logic that underlies God is not rational. It's concepts are not the same concepts as a well thought, well reasoned man, but rather a religion founded in superstition, and the wish to enforce absolutes in an uncertain world. I know the world is big and scary, and that you must be afraid of a world without absolutes, but trust me when I say, the world does just fine without God.

I do concede that God is just, and He must punish sin wherever it is found. No matter how well it is hidden. He must punish liars, theives, murders, fornicators. If God is just, and He is, then he must punish sin.

Back to the court of law. I stand guilty of my crimes. I have been caught red-handed. The judge says the fine for your crimes is $500,000 or life in prison. How are you going to pay for your crimes. I say Judge I haven't got two cents to rub together. He then will reply that I will spend the rest of my life in prison. Just as I'm about to be led away to prison. You burst into the court room, and say Judge gw's my friend I have the money and I'll pay his fine. I am then free to go on the basis that the fine has been paid. That is what Jesus Christ did for you. You broke the law. Jesus Christ paid your fine. He took your punishment for sin when He died on the cross. He not only took punishment from the Roman soldiers who beat him mercilessly, then hung him on the cross. But the Bible also says that God's wrath was poured out upon Christ as he took our punishment for sin.

I know this is hard to grasp. The Bible says that God takes the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. We must set aside our pride, and tell God, "I'm sorry. I really messed up." And thats a hard thing to do. Anytime you tell somebody that you were wrong is a humbling experience, but that is exactly what God expects of us. Because God resist the pround and gives grace to the humble. This is one time you cannot afford to be wrong. Don't let pride get in your way. Confess your sins to God. Turn from yours sins, and put your trust in Jesus Christ.

Let's use your exact same analogy for a moment.

Say you're in a court of law, and you have committed heinous crimes against humanity. For the sake of argument, let us take it to the extreme. Let's say that you have committed crimes that would make Hitler look like a saint in comparison. Are you genuinely going to argue that by saying, "Well judge, I accept the President as my saviour, therefore you should absolve me of all crimes?". You must either concede that your God is just, and therefore sends all those who have committed any sins to hell (Which, by extension, means you we are all doomed to hell), or your god is unjust and absolves anyone who commits a "sin" for a simple worship or Christ, and sends all those who may try to better the world, to hell.

This is the contradictory dogma taught by Christians. Are you to truly try and make me believe, that despite all of your sins, you can be absolved of any sins simply by accepting Jesus as your saviour? Then, are you going to try and convince me, in the same breath, that these are the actions of a just God?

I am trying to reason with you, just as you are trying to reason with me. Just as you are trying to warn me of the oncoming big rig about to splat me across the road, I am trying to explain to you that we're standing in our living rooms, and this is all just a bad nightmare; rational thought will awake you from this nightmare.

You and I know it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal, and lust. We both agree on that. However, the way we have come to those conclusions are completely different. You believe that it is wrong out of fear, out of the fear of an omniscient god who will come to make you pay in the afterlife. I believe it is wrong, because I have determined my own morality, and I have chosen for myself what is right and wrong.

Just as you believe you have the duty to try and save me, I believe I have the duty to show you the illusions that you see before your eyes, and give you a glimpse in to a reality without fear and superstition.

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Originally posted by Kharybdis:
Oh son, gwadnnek's busting out the good person test. You're out of your league, Chaos. Best watch yourself.

Don't curse.

And don't worry. Watch this.

Yes, I have lied, cheated, stolen, looked at women with lust (And did things that are definitely lustful), and did a whole range of other "sinful" deeds.

And guess what? I'm still a good person. Wanna know why?

Because I've done more good things for my family, friends, and community then I have done bad things. I've done bad things primarily in the name of doing good. (As a matter of fact, I think I was doing damn good when I did those lustful things. )

And since I set my *own* standard of right and wrong, I've got the definition of right and wrong covered.

So yes, I have told a lie, and I'm still a good person. ^_^

Wanna try again?

Oh shit son, gwadnnek's busting out the good person test. You're out of your league, Chaos. Best watch yourself.

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Originally posted by gwadnnek:
No, you both are missing the point. The point is, "Do you consider yourself to be a good person?"

How is this point?

The entire thread has been dedicated to whether the disbelief of God makes sense.

But fine, yes, I do consider myself a good person.

And I'll jump right ahead of you and answer, "How do you know?, by saying, "I set my own standard of right and wrong".

Lets see what Gwadnek has to say

No, you both are missing the point. The point is, "Do you consider yourself to be a good person?"

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You know Athiest can't find God the Same reason a thief can't find the police station he isn't looking for it he is running from it

Just like a Christian can't find logic, huh?

You know Athiest can't find God the Same reason a thief can't find the police station he isn't looking for it he is running from it

I think you all are missing the point altogether. You say there is no God. The next time someone says there is a God, me included. And that's not the point at all. The point is Do you believe your a good person?

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Originally posted by iamastar:
Can you prove God is real? I understand the post you started the topic with, but just because something is there doesn't make it from a god or even from a higher power. It is one thing to be religious, but can you say you are a spiritual person?

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Originally posted by angelwarrior:
How can you say you are spiritual? Lets say its just your body your human flesh no so called "life in you" and thats makes a good point we are all spiritual ppl think just one minute. What makes you...you is it your looks is it your hair no its your character your personalty and what is both those things and more your spirit So a dude I don't mean to scare you but your spiritual to.

I think you missed my point. Just because a person associates with a religion doesn't make them spiritual. It's like you can go to church twice a week, be in the choir, etc and still that doesn't classify you as spiritual. Or any closer to god for that matter. If he is real, he could care less about your attendence record and extra activities.

You have to reach a deeper point than just assuming that there is a higher power out there. No, I don't believe in god and I don't go to church but that doesn't mean I'm going to hell either. One of the things I do believe is that you can live your life as a good and moral person and your chances of greatness or failure in any "afterlife" are the same regardless of your belief in a higher power.

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Originally posted by angelwarrior:
So lets turn that around to the only true God lets say he lived in my heart instead of the garage and healed my sorrow and my pain and took away my sin and shame and bore it on himself now that I have seen what he has done for me I know it to be true and a fact like when you turn on a tv you have faith that it will come on I know for a fact he is real........how....... he told me

If THE DARK LORD MR. HAPPY PANTS did actually exist in my garage, then there would testable, logical, and rational ways to test for him. However, as you and I both know, there isn't, just like God. However, I digress...

But THE DARK LORD MR. HAPPY PANTS healed my sorrow and pain, and took away my own sin and shame and bore it on himself. I have seen what he has done!

You know I'm lying through my teeth here, but I could believe it in my heart and have the same validity as you do.

See, that's the whole point. Your personal analogies are your own irrational, illogical, emotion filled beliefs. These aren't insults, they're statement of facts.

You have no rational reason as to why it's God other then, "I've seen it", therefore it is irrational. You have no supporting logic other then "I've seen it", therefore it is illogical. Finally, you're filling this with "I've seen it, he's filled my heart". These are your own emotions, not the rest of the world.

You're asking for logical proof and reason, asking us how we can know that God doesn't exist, and then turning around and claiming that your God must exist because of your own irrational logic.

Can you prove God is real? I understand the post you started the topic with, but just because something is there doesn't make it from a god or even from a higher power. It is one thing to be religious, but can you say you are a spiritual person?[/QUOTE]

How can you say you are spiritual? Lets say its just your body your human flesh no so called " life in you" and thats makes a good point we are all spiritual ppl think just one minute. What makes you...you is it your looks is it your hair no its your character your personalty and what is both those things and more your spirit So a dude I don't mean to scare you but your spiritual to.

Lets just say your in a plane and it is crashing what do you do you don't say well my time to go......... No you scream out to God and pray you don't scream oh God of nine earths and two moons, it is human nature to be spiritual. whether with God or without is your choice but that choice decides where you end up

Lets say you do have a garage and there is a mr happypants....whatever. And he did cure all those thing would it be irrational to believe in those things of coarse not you would not take it into consideration that he "didn't exist" that he was some God in the sky.....

So lets turn that around to the only true God lets say he lived in my heart instead of the garage and healed my sorrow and my pain and took away my sin and shame and bore it on himself now that I have seen what he has done for me I know it to be true and a fact like when you turn on a tv you have faith that it will come on I know for a fact he is real........how....... he told me