Forgive me Celtic if this is taking the easy way out, but this pretty much sums up my belief on the issue, I am just too lazy to pu it in my own words (yet) :-P,, read it and if you have an questions then by all means...

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t015.html

If God is all powerful, why did his son have to die for us?

(that's the question my grandfather always asks himself, he's a Catholic by the way)

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Originally posted by DrStrangelove:

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Thus, if there were no first changer there would be no following changes. But there is change in the world, therefore, there must be a first changer. This everyone calls God, because it is the source of all motion in the world.

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So we agree on this, however our ideas about how exactly this occured might be off. Your whole peice points to a possible "proof" of God. However this is not proof, simply reasoning that makes the existance of God seem likely. I agree with that. This logic does has nothing to do with a Christian God however.

That said, I would like you to answer this: What evidence, proof, or reasoning is there that the Bible accurately describes God and God's commands? How do we know it is from God other than that someone way back wrote that it was? Why is the Bible God's divine word? If it is not, what evidence other than the Bible do we have the Jesus was God incarnate?

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"Evidence" and "proof" of the Bible accurately describing God and his commandments, I nor anyone else can give you. However, as for reasoning, in my study of the Bible I have come to find that it's explanation of God's character and God's will are just and accordance with reality. However, this is not simply something I can just pluck out a Bible verse and explain everything, but a thorough reading of the entire Bible is necessary

You next question cannot be answered by the way you phrased it as well. As I nor anyone today was their with some sort of recording device to tell definitively yes or no, I believe that the works of those authors will have to speak for themselves. As they do.

Your third question is a strange one.. "why" is it God's word? Could you elaborate? The way it [the question] is now, it would be like asking, "why is a tree a tree?" The idea of a tree is true if it conforms to the material thing before me that my senses represents to be a tree.

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Thus, if there were no first changer there would be no following changes. But there is change in the world, therefore, there must be a first changer. This everyone calls God, because it is the source of all motion in the world.

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So we agree on this, however our ideas about how exactly this occured might be off. Your whole peice points to a possible "proof" of God. However this is not proof, simply reasoning that makes the existance of God seem likely. I agree with that. This logic does has nothing to do with a Christian God however.

That said, I would like you to answer this: What evidence, proof, or reasoning is there that the Bible accurately describes God and God's commands? How do we know it is from God other than that someone way back wrote that it was? Why is the Bible God's divine word? If it is not, what evidence other than the Bible do we have the Jesus was God incarnate?

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Originally posted by Korith:

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Originally posted by Ohiosweetgirl:
Thank you very much Korith. I didn't exactly understand it all, but it gave me a better perspective of the situation. Thanks

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Basically proof of God is everywhere in the fact that everything exists. There has to be something to create it, and thn something to put it in motion. Things don't just... appear, nor do they just decide to move.

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I agree with this but I've also been argued with the evolution theory.

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Originally posted by Ohiosweetgirl:
Thank you very much Korith. I didn't exactly understand it all, but it gave me a better perspective of the situation. Thanks

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Basically proof of God is everywhere in the fact that everything exists. There has to be something to create it, and thn something to put it in motion. Things don't just... appear, nor do they just decide to move.

Thank you very much Korith. I didn't exactly understand it all, but it gave me a better perspective of the situation. Thanks

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Originally posted by Ohiosweetgirl:
Korith, what do you tell people that say that God can't be proven, so nobody should use him or the bible in an arguement?

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Apologetics

We observe in everyday life that things change, that is, they make a transition from being in potency to being in act, i.e. from potentiality to actuality. Now, nothing can reduce itself from potency to act. If something could do this, then it would be able to give itself something that it does not have. This is contrary to the principle of sufficient reason, for every transition from potency to act must have a sufficient reason. Therefore, nothing can change itself. But we see that things do change, therefore these new actualities come from beings that are already in act. Therefore, everything that is changed is changed by another.

Now, we know that everything that is changed is changed by another, but what about that thing that changes the thing that is changed? If it also changes, then what changes that? This line of questioning can continue to infinity. So, the question is, can there be an infinite regression in changers? The answer is no. If everything that changed depended on something else to change it, and there was no first changer then everything that changes would receive its change from nothing. Since everything that changes depends on a prior changer, then if there were no first changer, there would not be a sufficient reason for the existence of change.

Thus, if there were no first changer there would be no following changes. But there is change in the world, therefore, there must be a first changer. This everyone calls God, because it is the source of all motion in the world.

And the Bible has been proven, over and over again.

Well, it can't be used in a argument. It's not proven. It's a faith. The same goes to all religions. No religion is proven.

That's what I think.

Korith, what do you tell people that say that God can't be proven, so nobody should use him or the bible in an arguement?

Well, it is important to have Faith in Both.

Jesus because he is God, and you need to have faith in God to save yourself.

The Bible because it is the foundation our faith is set on, without it, we really don't have a leg on which to stand.

However, I would take Jesus over the Bible anyday.

I'd say Christ, but I don't know how well you can trust my opinion for a few reasons...

What's more important to have faith in? The Bible or Christ?

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Originally posted by northstar316:
so they are going to go through eternal damnation, even though they were good people, but pope Urban II goes to heaven, even though his crusade ended in the plundering of Constantinople?

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What did I just get done saying?

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I'm not here to judge anyone, passing judgement is a scary thing to do.

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I don't know WHO goes to heaven and WHO doesn't. All I know is that God has said in concern with Heaven is John 14:6

Anyway is that even the point? To go to heaven?

Ikki, I don't know. Who does? As far as I am concerned Heaven is a place where we go to worship God.

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From what I understood (and correct me if I'm wrong), but that was what all the animal sacrifice and whatnot was for. Kill enough sheep, and you got in.

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That sounds a little silly doesn't it?
Before Christianity offerings were given as a sign of humbleness and remorse, so in some aspects yu are right. However I believe your private conduct had more to do it with, the Bible states over and over that God sets man there portion by there walk.

Um, that was odd. Jetta, oh poster of four posts. That's what noisemail is for.

Oh, and Ikki, poster of twothousandeighthundredandfourtyseven posts, I agree. I think hell and heaven are creations of the human mind, and they are indeed real because people make them real, out of fear and love and merely believing in their presence. I do not, however, believe God is a creation of man, though God's image was created in ours, for us to better understand him/er.

Dear Korith,
I am a Christian and I am very thankful that someone is giving Christian insight to others.I would like to talk to you.Please e-mail me at prayer_fighter@yahoo.com.



Your Brother in Christ,
Jetta

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What about the people before Jesus?

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From what I understood (and correct me if I'm wrong), but that was what all the animal sacrifice and whatnot was for. Kill enough sheep, and you got in.

How do we know Heaven is not but a state of mind?

so they are going to go through eternal damnation, even though they were good people, but pope Urban II goes to heaven, even though his crusade ended in the plundering of Constantinople?