i must say clpo that i understand where you are coming from. i am not a Christian who judges anyone else because its simply not my place to. i think that Christians who judge and condemn others are just a disgrace to what Christianity is supposed to be. its not about rules and regulations, condemnation , or intolerance, but its about relationship and love.
some Christians misrepresent Christianity and i must apologize for that. but nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians or ANYBODY is supposed to be perfect. that simply comes from stupid people. all people are hypocrites, and that an absolute that will never change.

Don't get offended by this, but...
in general - 1st Timothy 1

bull sacrifice - Hebrews 10:11-14

eating seafood - Mark 7: 14-19

work on sabbath - Luke 6:1-5

menstruation/body discharge - (whole chapter on preventing spread of disease, i.e.: considering something "unclean" in the literal sense) Leviticus 15

shaving
- (ban on shaving for priests) Leviticus 21
- (considered humiliation) 2 Samuel 10:4, Isaiah 7:20
- (one reason to be done, test for leprosy) Leviticus 13
- (other reason: sorrow) Job 1:20
- et al.

lying with slave girl - (not something punishable by death) Leviticus 19:20


And finally, for those who desire to look these up who are without a hard copy.
I looked these up in the New American Standard Version, but that's just my preference.

The same with I. I still go to Church and read the Bible, even though I am not a Christian. I like to learn.

Who else would ridicule me like that?

I may not be religious, but that doesn't keep me from learning.

Yep.

Wait a minute, is blankpaper Jamaica again?

quote:

Originally posted by freedomordeath:
Believe it or not, people do it. And still some of these people don't believe it. I can choose whether or not Harry Potter is real and telling me something, just as the Bible might, but others who read the stories may like it and still not agree with it.

Yup. The Bible is just a book. Held to all literary criticisms. And in that case, it fails rather miserably. It's kinda boring. It's sort of like reading a more whimsical version of your school's disciplinary rules.

quote:

*chokes* YOU study the Bible?

Believe it or not, people do it. And still some of these people don't believe it. I can choose whether or not Harry Potter is real and telling me something, just as the Bible might, but others who read the stories may like it and still not agree with it.

Logic. (What I've already said concerning Leviticus.)

In Christian terms, though, we say that we are to follow the New Testament over the Old Testament because that is what makes us Christian (and not Jewish) in the first place.

And here's a thread I started on Leviticus a long time ago if you would like to use it as a reference or something like that. I don't care if it is revised or not (that's be kinda redundant) but I thought I'd post the link so you could look if you want.

http://boards.youthnoise.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/265299255/m/852104091/r/852104091#852104091

I still study the Bible, albeit in a non-Christian sense.

But still, why are you allowed to disregard Leviticus? Where does it say that you need not follow the rules laid out in that book? It says in Leviticus that you must follow those rules or God will punish you (and in some spectacularly gruesome ways, too).

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:

quote:

I also feel your conculsion that Christians ignoring Old Testement laws as being hypocritical is, yes indeed, ignorant. You yourself obviously not being Christian, I would encourage you to read the bible clearly and unobjectively before futher using it as a sword against Christian ignorance.

No actually that statement was for Agua.

Although I find it ironic that on a board about Christian hypocritcy, was actaully started by a "once was" Christian. lol.
Not trying to knock or anything, I just see it to be ironic.

Although just being Christian doesn't mean you read the bible... sadly...

If you were referring to me, then I'll have you know that I was once a Christian. Now I'm not. Take your conclusions from there.

quote:

Fear knocks some sense into people if you really look at it.

I've tried to think of all cases and I can't come up with one in which fear would come in handy. Fear blinds you from reason and curves your thinking.

Of course they do that, clpo, they're human. As humans, we apply things only if they benefit us. They do it because they either: a. can't admit their religion has faults (and everything does have a fault) or b. they were brainwashed.

I questioned this to my boyfriend just last night. He's a Christian. I told him on the incest and the like thing and he was speechless. He hesitated and couldn't give me a straightfoward stable answer.

But not only are their hypocrites in Christianity.

quote:

I also feel your conculsion that Christians ignoring Old Testement laws as being hypocritical is, yes indeed, ignorant. You yourself obviously not being Christian, I would encourage you to read the bible clearly and unobjectively before futher using it as a sword against Christian ignorance.

If you were referring to me, then I'll have you know that I was once a Christian. Now I'm not. Take your conclusions from there.

quote:

Fear knocks some sense into people if you really look at it.

Fear never knocks sense into to people. Fear caused hundreds of men, women and children to be burned at the stake. Fear killed Matthew Sheperd and thousands of others like him.

You are wonderful, clpo. Truly a wonderful person.

There are really three ways someone can feel about the Bible that I feel are acceptable (and, yes, this is just my opinion but I think it's a fairly logical one):

1. You can say that one must follow every rule law, command, etc. in the Bible and you must do it as well to the very best of your ability. However, we are all sinners (according to my religion, folks, not in a general sense) so you will not always succeed but if you expect others to follow every rule then I think you should expect it of yourself.

2. You can say that every rule should be followed but accept that this may not always happen and that everyone who accepts God into his/her heart are still up for forgiveness. In terms of homosexuality, you can say that it is a sin but realize that it is not any greater or worse than wearing mixed fabrics.

...and #3 is me.

3. You can realize that the rules and laws in the Old Testament of the Bible (most notably those in Leviticus) were written for certain people for a certain time period and many do not apply to today's time. The laws in Leviticus that I would find still acceptable are found in other books of the Bible so I say that this particular book (as far as rules and laws go) is obsolete to our society. However, if you insist on following the rule about homosexuality, please follow the rest of them.

Leviticus is the only place where I can find the Bible condemning homosexuality outright (I can refute every other reference, including Romans and the ones given by Aguagon but I won't mess up clpo's board by doing so) and since I do not intend to rid myself of my mixed fabrics, I also do not condemn homosexuality.

Agua, the Book of Leviticus is only yo be applied for the Jews of the Exodus, during the time of the Exodus. Therefore, all your arguments involving in quotion or otherwise with that book are moot.

I also feel your conculsion that Christians ignoring Old Testement laws as being hypocritical is, yes indeed, ignorant. You yourself obviously not being Christian, I would encourage you to read the bible clearly and unobjectively before futher using it as a sword against Christian ignorance.

The argument of Old Testemant laws, as they apply to Christians, is not whether the Old Testement is "obsloete" or not. Indeed it is the word of God, and therefore teaches us volumes about his Character. However we also must consider the "before Christ" factor. Yes, when you quote an argument in 3 words it can sound stupid. You did a very good job of that. Now lets be fair. We are talking about two different people. The Jews, and the Christians.

Sense the death of Christ, those who believe in God [Ywh] have Entered a new covenant with God. The "Old" covenant was one of circumcision, the "New" the one of the body of Christ. Thus, a new set of laws as well abide.
The argument of "the laws of Moses" as they apply to Christians was one argued even in the earily chruch. However, it is quite clear that the covenant with God is one of salvation by Faith, through grace. Which has massive implications to this issue...

However on the issue of homosexuality, I think we all know how I feel...

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

This and other quotes from Leviticus, along with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis, give the Old Testament an unambiguously anti-homosexuality position. One version of one passage of Deuteronomy also condemns the "sodomites." The homophobia continues in the New Testament...

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

Corinthas and Timothy also speak out against homosexuality in less obvious ways. But even given the ambiguity of some of the passages, there can be no doubt that the New and Old Testaments alike speak out against homosexuality, plain and simple.

My opinion of all this? Well, first of all, it needs to be noted that Leviticus also condemns cutting your beard, coming into contact with a woman during her menstrual period, eating shrimp, and sleeping with another man's slave girl. Deuteronomy advocates bull sacrifice. Exodus 35:2 explicitly states that any man who works on the Sabbath shall be put to death.

So case closed, right? Nothing in the Bible can be taken too seriously, right? Evidently, wrong. I posted an article on my blog about this a while back, and was immediately blasted by Christians for my ignorance of the fact that the Old Testament is evidently completely obsolete (and never mind the fact that it's allegedly the literal word of God). So evidently, since the New Testament also speaks out homosexuality but not bull sacrifice, it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that God really does frown on homosexuality.

Of course, there's a few logical problems with this. The first that comes to mind would be the Jews, who don't believe in the New Testament. So boy, if you're Jewish and the Bible is indeed meant to be taken literally and you're homosexual, you're betraying your faith big time. Ditto if you eat shrimp or shave or sleep with your neighbor's slave girl.

Secondly, I don't understand why the passages advocating bull sacrifice and commanding you not to shave are obsolete. The best answer I've been given for why Leviticus can no longer be taken seriously is, "Because Jesus died."

Thirdly, the Old Testament as a whole obviously isn't obsolete. In most contexts, it's still used as a prelude to the New Testament. The New Testament is a continuation, not a re-write. And while this continuation may not condemn shaving or touching a woman during her menstrual period itself, it doesn't retract the Old Testament's orders. If you're going to argue that Leviticus is obsolete, you could also argue that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" is obsolete.

What conclusion can we come to from all of this? Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that just as people use the idea of biblical errancy to exclude certain portions of the Bible while highlighting others, people are using the "Old Testament no longer applies" argument to do just the same. It all boils down to the same thing: The Bible contains a lot of passages we don't like, or find irrelevant, or find unreasonable, or even find morally unacceptable in this day and age. Today's Christians have to accept that if the parts of the Bible we don't like are no longer the "divine word", then no parts of the Bible are the "divine word."

Or to put it differently, they either have to accept that the Bible cannot be taken literally, or be doomed to remain what they are: religious hypocrites.

I can't say whether or not homosexuality being a sin is actually in the Bible because I haven't read it all. So far, what I have read, I haven't seen anything that states homosexuality is a sin. However, I think someone long ago didn't like the idea of homosexuality and decided to say that it's wrong because God says so and they are going to hell. Fear knocks some sense into people if you really look at it. I bet a lot of people listened and lived a life of fear rather than being a homosexual. Now, we have a little more freedom, therefore when someone tells another person that they are going to hell for whatever reason, the other person is more annoyed than scared.

It's hard following everything in the Bible, it's hard even understanding everything in the Bible. Maybe someone long ago misunderstood the Bible and believed that the Bible was saying that homosexuality is a sin. Maybe someone made it up because they didn't like the idea of homosexuality or maybe it really is a sin. Whatever the case is, I don't think anyone could really follow everything in the Bible, it's nearly impossible. You have to be smart enough to understand it and willing enough to do everything that the Bible says.

Honestly, I don't think all Christians who say that homosexuality is wrong really can stand here and say that they follow everything in the Bible. I never really heard anyone say that. Most likely, I hear them say that they aren't prefect and they make mistakes, they don't follow everything in the Bible, they are still learning. I never confronted a Christian who says that they follow the Bible to the last core. I don’t think it has anything to do with whether or not the person is being hypocritical. I have encountered Christians who do not agree with homosexuality and other things that are considered sins in the Bible but they do admit that they don't follow everything in the Bible. I think the point is that some people find some things like homosexuality or having sex before marriage socially unacceptable so they find reasons like it says it in the Bible to be right. However, it could also be that it actually is stated in the Bible. Or maybe it could just be that some people make the Bible more suited for their liking, meaning they do some things and don’t do some things, things that are easy for them, they follow and things that are harder, they don’t follow.