I suppose this might be best put in the philosophy section, but since it has a religious twist, I put it here.

So, my topic today is as the title suggests: free will and moral responsibility. What's this got to do with religion? You'll see.

There are two very significant questions in philosophy concerning free will. They are "What is it to act (or choose) freely?", and "What is it to be morally responsible for one's actions (or choices)?" They're closely connected questions because freedom is necessary for moral responsibility.

However, this brings up an interesting point. If we must be free in order to be held morally responsible, how do certain religions fit in? Some denominations of Protestant Christianity say that everything we do is predetermined by God, so we really aren't free. However, they also claim that we are still morally responsible for our actions. How is this possible? If we have no control over what we choose to do, then we cannot possibly be held responsible for what we do, since those actions are predetermined by God.

This is a fairly blatant contradiction. I suppose it could be addressed by saying that God only has a plan, which we have the ability to deviate from if we so choose, but if you really think God has already determined who we are and what we do, you have some explaining to do as to why we're held responsible for what God has us doing.

I can't say if this will help the discussion, but eternity isn't a very logical topic. Logic, at least the scientific kind, assumes eternity mostly in terms of "the length of the line or plane" and not so much in terms of "when we actually care about something happening". Eternity is basically a length so far that we only think about it in vague terms, because "that which never ends, with the possible exception of time" doesn't easily make sense. Friction tends to end things quickly (or slowly) as does its cousins entropy and chaos, etc.

Also, if we assume dieties as eternal and we assume s/he/it/they know(s) more than anything carbon-based, than it's not too far off to think that they may have figured something out with regards to our future. It doesn't directly follow that time is subverted by one of these dieties, but assuming these as eternal beings unaffected by time passing, then thinking of them as outside time looking in can become more plausible.

And that's alright. It's a different way to think, but you can find answers just as important and revealing through logic and science as you can through religon and spirituality. You know, I think we're exact opposites in how our minds work.

You're right, I can't imagine a place without logic. I've tried to let go of logic before, but I just can't bring myself to do it. It just seems to me that faith is a cop-out. That's not meant to be a slam or anything, but it's what it's always felt like to me. I need proof, but I'm told I can't rely on it, which bugs me to no end. If I can't get logical, evidence-based answers, then I suppose I'll just have to live with no answers at all. That's just the kind of person I am.

I don't think you'll ever let go of your logic, clpo, but that's the only advice I think any spiritual person could give you. And it would be the best and only thing they can say. Your logic is killing your faith, because you can't see beyond this three-dimentional world into something different, something more, into a place where logic does not, and has not ever existed. If you can let go of your logic, your facts, your proof, you might finally understand, but until then, you're always going to be wondering and questioning, never satisfied with an answer. Because there are no answers that you can understand.

So you're saying that God exists at all times? That doesn't make sense. How can God be at the end of time if the end of time has yet to make it's appearance? And more importantly, how is he observing us now if now (meaning the present at this very instant) has long gone? I mean, looking back at things already done is all well and good, but you're saying that our future is God's past, which I have a really hard time accepting.

Looking back on your life, you can see the reasoning that went into your actions that, flawed or not, you acted on at the time. You may feel regret for the wrong actions and are glad for the better ones, etc etc etc. Could you say that you were forced into acting that way, from this point of view? That you had no choice but to suffer through your sordid past? Or, would you say that it was (at least mostly) your fault for getting into your scrapes?

Now picture the end of your life, or better yet, the end of time. Looking back over all human history and drawing inferences from your past experiences, would you say that the actions of all mankind and the results thereof were each person's own fault? Of course.

Now, finally, we get to the point of this exercise: imagining the end of time looking back, you have now put your mind into a semblance of one of God's points of view. You can see (in the imagination, or "the mind's eye" as some would say) how people have screwed up over the ages. Or the good things they did, etc. As can God. It was every person's own dumbcuffedness that got them to where they've ended up, and seeing it from the latter end as you imagine you are doing, you are not going to force them into doing it by the act of observation.

Yes, I said I wouldn't type so much. But I did. Oh, well. I tried to make it as sensible as I could, and just ended up making it long in the process.

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The first assumes divine force applying pressure, the second claims foreknowledge.

My argument is that in order to have foreknowledge, there must be only one possibility. The choices we make sound best to us because they're the only ones we can make (but we don't know that).

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In order for God to know what you will do, there must only be one possibility, which means you had the illusion of choice, but no actual choice.

Isn't that just confusing cause and effect? Saying "Because God orders me to follow this timeline, therefore I am going to" is different from "Because the record says I did something on February 7 at 3:45am, but it is not yet February 7, then I will do it that day at 3:45am." The first assumes divine force applying pressure, the second claims foreknowledge. That's it. We force ourselves into this path. Just because God knows what we will choose doesn't mean that option will not sound the best to us out of all others at the time.

For example, the roller coaster bit: you wouldn't normally ride one, but with peer pressure (implied or spoken) combined with seeing the coaster and wanting to prove yourself or rising testosterone levels or sudden-onset bravado or whatever elements combined to keep you standing in line. It was the option you took at the time. You wouldn't have believed us if we'd told you beforehand, but you felt it your best option or you wouldn't have done it. (This is something that could have been predicted, if someone knew you - truly knew you - and saw your surroundings.)

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For this universe, [time is] really just a line.

If we can assume God as creator and time as something He created, then isn't it sensible to assume that He is outside time as we know it. If God made time, then time cannot trap God within itself. A folded line is still a line, but a line under a microscope does not include the viewer within its folds.

I'm starting to fall asleep at my computer (literally), so I think I'll try to come back later.

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Knowing what you will choose is different from forcing you to choose it.

No, it's not. How many times must I explain? In order for God to know what you will do, there must only be one possibility, which means you had the illusion of choice, but no actual choice.

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I already said that person-who-...

You're right. My bad. Didn't see that.

One way to think of God and time is that time is like a film strip while God is holding the camera. One picture shows you shooting a man (or whatever) but you still choose to pull the trigger, to remove the gun from its holster, to stop him from robbing/killing you, and you still chose to protect yourself/your family by buying a gun in the first place.

Knowing what you will choose is different from forcing you to choose it.

Are they actually thoughts, syd? Did you think that statement through?

You were rude, and I wasn't. You're not really apologizing, and you're not apologizing for that, so... you're not forgiven.

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Originally posted by Sydney12:
Well SORRY I was just stating my thoughts...

That's being a little generous.

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Sydney, I don't belong to a religon, so what you say is pointless. Are you meaning to troll here or am I just completely off my rocker?

Well SORRY I was just stating my thoughts...

Sydney, I don't belong to a religon, so what you say is pointless. Are you meaning to troll here or am I just completely off my rocker?

Maybe he knows all the possibilities, clpo. There isn't just one pathway to time. There are...infinite things that can happen, at any moment. I don't know. I can't explain it. Desole.

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and frankly, it's bothering me that everyone automatically groups the two together

If he knows it will happen, that means it must happen, and so we don't have a choice. But that's a lot different than what he wants us to do, which I think is what most people would say is going on; that is, God has a plan, but we still have the ability to go on our own path. But knowing concretely means no other possibilities can exist.

Well good for you shade, God doesn't exist anyway, so don't wory about it gettin confusing, they made it confusing so the people in charge of religion can control yu by teling you what it means. Thats why as soon as you try and figure stuf out you cant.

Well, I'm going to leave this conversation. I don't know how I understand that God knowing what will happen isn't the same as controlling it. I don't know how I understand that; I just do... and frankly, it's bothering me that everyone automatically groups the two together, and I'm losing a little more of my patience every time I see it... so good luck guys, with your conversation.

Tylenol is better

I'm new here and I want to say that I don't beleive in God at all. I don't think he exists, I think he is something made up by humans to lean on when they need something. I think people need to stop relying on God to solve their problems and start trying to fix them themselves.