If "He" is beyond gender then I doubt "He" would really care what I use when I'm talking about "Him." So if it bothers you so much then I'll use "She"...I really don't care, I'm just trying to make a point. Its also pretty hypocrital of you to criticize me of using the term "He" when you are doing it as well.

And no offense but if my question wasn't directed at you, then why are you answering it? But, in any case, its the same point. Why would "they" think that with predestination we cannot have free will?

If God is beyond time, then "he" is also beyond gender. Wouldn't you think? I'm not going to apologize for being dreadfully annoyed by your over-use of the word "He".

They don't think it means the same. They think that if one exists, the other can't or shouldn't. Different, than being the same thing.

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Originally posted by Torin2482:
"Religion is about faith, not proof through debate. If religion were debatable, we would have found a winner by now…"

This is really good. If you want to argue and reason about God, then you have to argue within the realm of beliefs about God. There are many explanations for the mysteries of God and whether or not He exists, but a lot of them require faith in order to believe in them in the first place. Basically, it all comes down to..do you believe in it, or not? Reasoning can only get you so far. Its not going to prove or disprove the existence of God. It can give you many different perspectives and open your eyes to many things, but it will never give you the ultimate answers. You have to look elsewhere for that (not to sound like a hippy or anything).

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Also, we are mortal. He is divine. There is some form of understanding he has that we lack. Just a litte bit. Time is only one of the things we don't understand about the divine. And you know what? I don't think we're supposed to understand, yet if ever.

Yeah, I agree Shade. I believe God isn't restricted by time. If He created this universe, then it is very likely that He created time to begin with. Don't you think God would be beyond time?

Oh, and I still don't get why people think that predestination means the same thing as no free will. There's a huge difference between the two.*sigh*

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How can God exist where nothing has yet happened (i.e. the future)?

That's another conversation entirely. I have pages and pages of time-theory up the ass I could share with you if you'd be willing to theorize.

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The future is not set in stone.

I never said it was. It's a bit of both. I believe you can influence the past and future, because they're all happening at the same time. Time is not a line, or a circle, or whatever, it just is. It's everywhere. I'm going to stop. Like I said, different discussion.

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The possibilities are endless.

And maybe in some reality, you've made them.

Psst: stop thinking of time as a line you can move along. Once you get over that, talk to me, and we can theorize together.

Also, we are mortal. He is divine. There is some form of understanding he has that we lack. Just a litte bit. Time is only one of the things we don't understand about the divine. And you know what? I don't think we're supposed to understand, yet if ever.

How can God exist where nothing has yet happened (i.e. the future)? The future is not set in stone. Time is not a single line where only certain events happen no matter what (because that would be determinism). It's a single line up to the present, but from the present, the line splits off into an infinity of possibilities. I could choose to type this sentence, or I could choose to go take a showever. I could choose to take a drink of water, or I could choose to go jump off a bridge. The possibilities are endless.

Now, I suppose one could say that since God is infinite, he could indeed be present in all of those infinite possibilities. But that doesn't mean he knows what will happen. In other words, God knows what has happened, what is happening, and what could happen. But not what will happen. In order for God to know what will happen in the future (in other words, in order for him to pick out which possible line time will travel on after the present moment), there must be only one possible future line, which means that all our actions have been determined for us and our choices are not really free after all.

God might be able to make a reasonable prediction of what will happen based on what is happening and what has happened, but that's not the same as knowing exactly what will happen. That's impossible unless events have already been predetermined, since any minute change in the present could have a huge effect on what happens in the future.

Don't you think it's selfish to create a race of beings to worship you, no, a whole world, plus angels, celestials and all manner of divine messengers? And foolish for us to worship him for that reason?

God, is everywhere, and everywhen. He exists forever at the very moment the heavens came into being, always at the moment the angels fell, eternally when Jesus died, forever when the revelations are completed, and forever after. That may be why he knows what's going to happen, because it is happening for him, always.

A Muslim perspective is greatly appreciated. I never really considered how Muslims would view it (I may know a lot about the basics of Islam, but my comparative religion class never went into the little details).

I understand what you mean about life being a test, Dalecia. Good metaphor (if you meant it that way). But wouldn't it make more sense to say that God knows what we should do rather than what we will do? That fits more with free will, since if God knew exactly what we are going to do every minute of our lives, then we never really had a choice in the first place. We simply thought we did. But if God has some sort of plan he hopes we'll follow, then I can understand that. I may not agree with it or believe it, but it makes a lot more sense than saying God knows what we'll do but we still have a choice.

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Originally posted by Shade:
Dalecia, why should we serve God?

my reasons for serving God, is that i believe thats why we were created. and i belief in giving credit when its due. He gave me everything i have.

Dalecia, why should we serve God?

im not a protestant, im muslim. we believe that we have free will, but we also believe in pre-ordainment. pre-ordainment means that God knows what we're going to do, not nessessarity controls what we do. we still have free will, and we're still held responsible for what we choose or not choose to do, its just that God already knows what we're going to choose before we choose it. I dont think its a contradiction at all. life's a test. Gods the grader. he knows and decides all the rights and wrongs, gives us the test, then we have to be prepared to be called upon according to our 'answers' to Gods tests in life.

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Originally posted by clpo13:
[QUOTE] Originally posted by orangegoddess021706:
Vague question. freedom from what?

Freedom from determinism, really. Free will is what I was referring to. Are our actions and thoughts free or are they determined by something else (such as God)?

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Originally posted by orangegoddess021706:
Vague question. freedom from what?

Freedom from determinism, really. Free will is what I was referring to. Are our actions and thoughts free or are they determined by something else (such as God)?

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Originally posted by Meagan87:
I believe in God and I believe in free will. I don't really see where the issue is. If someone wants to explain, by all means, please do so...

Basically, the idea that God has a plan for us conflicts with the idea of free will. If God has a plan, our actions are already determined (since God knows what we will do), therefore we are not free. If we aren't free, we can't be held morally responsible for any of our actions. On the other hand, if free will does exist, then we are morally responsible for all of our actions.

Basically, I take issue with the people who say that God has a plan for everyone, but we're still responsible for what we do (even though God planned out what we did).

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Originally posted by Shade:
Well, morality, if based off a religon, is not based off of Christianity alone.

Ah, I see. I just used Christianity as an example simply because it's the main religion in question. But I understand what you mean.

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Originally posted by Torin2482:
If you want to debate within one context, fine but to disprove each other is a meaningless debate.

But it's impossible to debate within a single context. Didn't you read my post? The Christian context, for instance, denies any opposition. To argue within that context, both parties must hold Christian beliefs. If that's the case, then there would be no debate at all (at least not about human-created morality).

The idea is not to disprove religious beliefs, but rather to challenge the idea that religious beliefs are the only ones worth having, especially since the matter is very subjective. I've no problem with people believing what they wish to believe (so long as it doesn't involve injuring me in any way), but I do take offense at people claiming those beliefs are undeniably true, when I can, in fact, deny them.

wow...

Because we like to live meaningless lives full of argument and turmoil?

This topic is highly subjective, i have restated my comments only to show this point. Whenever someone challenges the religious aspect of this issue then i attack, but religious and non religious people have no ground outside of their context because we are talking about two realities that are based off of entirely different beliefs. This is like comparing the apples to oranges, it's pointless. If you want to debate within one context, fine but to disprove each other is a meaningless debate.

I found a comment when i was surfing that basically says it all:

"Religion is about faith, not proof through debate. If religion were debatable, we would have found a winner by now…"

I say again, whats the point...

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I'm not really sure what you mean.

Well, morality, if based off a religon, is not based off of Christianity alone.

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I was unaware that animals formed society and had values.

Phht. How ignorant. Wolves have packs, family groups who share plentiful and hard times together. They have hierarchy, status, law and judgment. Ravens lead solitary lives, but mate for life, raising their children and living with their mate until death. I didn't take animal behaviour for nothing. And I'm not an animal freak for no reason.

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animals don't hold ideological belief's.

My, my. Have you ever asked animals what they've believed?

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You can post it a third and fourth time if you want, not replying to your statement dosn't ncessarily mean I don't understand it, rather, I choose to ignore it because it isn't a valid reply, like clpo pointed out.

Was that to....

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i believe that morality came from God. God gave the first order of morality to Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit (God is teaching them to control their curiosity and preventing them to be gluttons). Our actions are not predetermined, that’s for sure.

What about the other people not from Eden? Oh, dear, that was heresy.

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As far as I am concerned he is the ultimate totalitarian

Let's all worship Cernnunos! Woo hoo! He is so much better than Yahweh.

I don't know where this discussion is going...

I believe in God and I believe in free will. I don't really see where the issue is. If someone wants to explain, by all means, please do so...

could you please not turn this debate into another one of your senseless invocations of god all powerfull's righteousness.

And answering your statement about how god wants us to be pure, it is not it's choice to decide what is suitable for a species of beings that function rationally and are culturally developed.
You see, most people don't need to follow phony morals to know how to behave correctly and make decisions. Morality as it is imposed by religious faith only limits one's actions, and restriction of freedom is undesirable.

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Originally posted by LoveTheRainbow:

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and preventing them to be gluttons

Oh my golly gosh! A piece of fruit. How gluttonous

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Coz as far as im concerned the world wants to be free from God, from God’s laws and commandments – God’s chastisement

Of course (some) people want to be free of god. As far as I am concerned he is the ultimate totalitarian. He tells people what not to wear, what not to eat, who to love, ect. And according to some if you do not obey this you will burn in the firery pits of hell.

controlling yourself from curiosity - my point on that time, it was glutton already and because of that, we are all in deep sh*t.
well, not totally totalitarian. there's free will, of course.

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and preventing them to be gluttons

Oh my golly gosh! A piece of fruit. How gluttonous!

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Coz as far as im concerned the world wants to be free from God, from God’s laws and commandments – God’s chastisement

Of course (some) people want to be free of god. As far as I am concerned he is the ultimate totalitarian. He tells people what not to wear, what not to eat, who to love, ect. And according to some if you do not obey this you will burn in the firery pits of hell.