The Source is the...er source of all things (hence the name I suppose). It created the gods, the worlds, souls, through action or inaction. God, Yahweh, that is, is just a small part of the Source, as are Cernnunos, Kali Ma, Aradia, Cerridwyn, and all the other gods. That's basically it. I might go on, but it would get very poetic very fast.

quote:

The fact that he knows what we're going to do means we will end up doing it at some point, which negates free will.

People knew that when they discovered the Fates. Free will is just an illusion. (ooh, I made it sound like a conspiracy)

Torin, how do you know the Morning Star didn't create hell himself? Mmmm? [sarcasm](How could such a good and loving god create such an awful place, and nine levels of it nonetheless!)[/sarcasm]

clpo, believe what you want to believe. Not all of us are going to hell, and not all of us are going to heaven. This is the pagan-ness seeping into my Christian faith (or maybe the other way around?). Just trust in yourself and believe what really feels like truth to you. Not what you want to be truth, because people will believe what they want to be true, to give themselves hope or to make themselves feel good... Just believe what feels true. Because Christianity does not have it all right. They have some right, but not all, and that goes for every single religon out there.

quote:

We don't know if God sends people like you to hell or not. There are reference that say so and references that say otherwise.

Great, so which am I supposed to believe? If what I was told in my youth is true, this is a rather important issue. I mean, it's only my eternal soul at stake.

Anyways, I find it odd that the Bible is so vague on matters such as this. I suppose it's not really necessary for faith, but it does seem like something that would be useful to know.

quote:

He may know what we are going to do (to a certain degree)

What do you mean "to a certain degree"? The thing I'm trying to say is that if God knows what we're going to do at all, that means we will end up doing it. Say you're deciding whether to have eggs or sausage in the morning. God knows you will pick the sausage, yet you still wonder which you should have. You pick the sausage, thinking you made a free choice. But since God knew you were going to eat sausage before you came into this situation, you were predetermined to make that choice no matter what. It is an illusion of free will, not true free will. Get what I mean?

quote:

So, I think the issue is not whether we have free will or not, but whether God knew that creating us would mean that some would end up in hell.

The answer to that question is no according to the bible. God created hell to banish satan from heaven, he did infact punish satin but he did not creat hell for the purpose of banishing humans to it. No where in the bible does it say hell is punishment for sinners.

quote:

The fact that he knows what we're going to do means we will end up doing it at some point, which negates free will.

Well, it actually doesn't negate free will. He may know what we are going to do (to a certain degree), but we still made these decisions ourselves. He is not forcing us to make certain decisions in our lives, he would just be watching as we made these decisions. The only thing we did not choose on our own was being born. So, I think the issue is not whether we have free will or not, but whether God knew that creating us would mean that some would end up in hell.

To speed....(shakes head as well) Try reading it again, maybe it will click this time.

quote:

You can argue this point out of context (christian terms) and prove me wrong all day but it won't make a world of difference. What i wrote above are my opinions based on the bible's teachings and all stay within the Christian context of how we view God, it is not meant to disprove anyone athiests views of God because it cannot. This is precisely why debating religion is a huge merry-go-round. Although each side can disprove each others case within their context, they cannot disprove the others arguements outside of their context. Be that as it may, have at it if you like because i know someone will say something anyway.

quote:

CLPO: Not necessarily God's doing, but the fact that God allows this to happen (instead of, say, showing compassion at the last minute and forgiving us no matter what we did) could be interpreted to say that God punishes us for making the wrong choice, that is, not following him.

quote:

Torin1782: You can argue this point out of context (christian terms) and prove me wrong all day but it won't make a world of difference. What i wrote above are my opinions based on the bible's teachings and all stay within the Christian context of how we view God, it is not meant to disprove anyone athiests views of God because it cannot. This is precisely why debating religion is a huge merry-go-round. Although each side can disprove each others case within their context, they cannot disprove the others arguements outside of their context. Be that as it may, have at it if you like because i know someone will say something anyway.

We don't know if God sends people like you to hell or not. There are reference that say so and references that say otherwise.

Atheists. (shakes head)

quote:

We were created by God and therefore under his circumstances cannot in any way be ultamately free from him regardless of your religious beliefs if any at all, this is what I believe as a Christian. There is a right path and a wrong path, how these paths are judged are unknown to humans but we choose what path we want to take. The bible simply tells us how to live life properly in our dimension.

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

quote:

no body said we are punished by God

Well, the Bible does make it seem that way. It tell us that at the end of time, we're judged in front of God. I suppose it's true that he doesn't actually punish us (or judge us for that matter), but if our name isn't the in book of life, we're condemned to hell. Not necessarily God's doing, but the fact that God allows this to happen (instead of, say, showing compassion at the last minute and forgiving us no matter what we did) could be interpreted to say that God punishes us for making the wrong choice, that is, not following him.

quote:

But even though God may know what is going to happen, it doesn't mean that he made us do everything in our lives.

Actually, this is the part I don't understand. How can God know what we will do if a) we haven't done it yet and b) he's not forcing us to do it? The fact that he knows what we're going to do means we will end up doing it at some point, which negates free will.

Of course, you could just mean that God has a plan, but free will lets us deviate from the plan. But if God knows what we're going to do, we can't possibly be free.

Also, I understand what you're saying, Torin, but I cannot help but feel that it is...wrong, somehow. I still can't believe we have true free will if only certain actions are the right ones and that any others are self-destructive.

quote:

The Source

explain this source if you wouldn't mind disserting a little bit as it has my curiosity piqued

We were created by God and therefore under his circumstances cannot in any way be ultamately free from him regardless of your religious beliefs if any at all, this is what I believe as a Christian. There is a right path and a wrong path, how these paths are judged are unknown to humans but we choose what path we want to take. The bible simply tells us how to live life properly in our dimension.

Heaven and Hell are not paralell to reward and punishment for both heaven and hell were created and set in place before humans existed. So heaven and hell are like gravity on earth, they are rules we cannot control or manipulate (at least not yet), example: You jump off of a building to meet pavement on the bottom and the result will be your death, you choose not to believe in God and the result will be eternity in hell. God is simply saying, you either choose me or you choose your own fate and trust me you will not enjoy it. It's like saying, getting cancer in my lungs is punishment from God because i made the wrong decision. Cancer is not a punishment in this case, nor is going to hell because you didn't believe in God, these are results of your actions. Your choice to not believe in God results in you going to hell, not "im being punished for being bad!" I will state again, there is no need for God to punish humans because of the world he created is set up that we truely punish ourselves by our own actions. Now if we created heaven and hell for reward and punishment or God told us that hell IS punishment for the damned then it would be so but he didn't intend for hell to be a means of punishment, this i what the bible tells us. If i were to take this arguement out of context i would honestly have no ground because athiests and other religious people don't believe in heaven or hell and don't believe that this world has a defined right and wrong that is the same for everyone. In an athiests context, heaven and hell are reward and punishment because most of them believe God is like a parent and has a degree of control over some humans and punishes them when they "get out of line" so to speak, which in your context makes sense. Which brings me to my next point.

You can argue this point out of context (christian terms) and prove me wrong all day but it won't make a world of difference. What i wrote above are my opinions based on the bible's teachings and all stay within the Christian context of how we view God, it is not meant to disprove anyone athiests views of God because it cannot. This is precisely why debating religion is a huge merry-go-round. Although each side can disprove each others case within their context, they cannot disprove the others arguements outside of their context. Be that as it may, have at it if you like because i know someone will say something anyway.

I know what clpo is saying. But even though God may know what is going to happen, it doesn't mean that he made us do everything in our lives. Meaning we still have free will. The only thing we did not choose to do was to become born or created. I think what the issue is, is whether or not God knew that by creating humans they (or we) would fall into sin and therefore many would be condemned to hell. If God knew this before creating us then the issue of him being ultimately good could be up for debate. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Thats the best way I can explain it. But I think that there is so much more to it than we could possibly figure out. The thing is..God didn't create sin or Satan (according to the Bible), so maybe he didn't foresee his creation falling into sin because the whole sin thing didn't come from him. Or maybe Satan (who is actually a fallen angel) came into being after God created us. The whole thing is kind of a mystery. So basically it comes down to one of two things: did God know before or after he created us that we would fall into sin?

..who knows?

Feh, This one hates time restrictions on edits. I mean to say God. The Source and the Christian God are two different entities.

Maybe we're punished by going to hell? The Source does punish. Never doubt that.

no body said we are punished by God, if they did then they are misinformed of what the bible tells us. We punish ourselves by making wrong decisions why does God have to punish us?

Choice is all well and good, but it's not truly free will if you're punished for making the wrong choice.

God does not control our actions. God rather gives us the tools to suceed in his light. God lays his plan out for us on a daily basis in our heads, whether his plan for us means to fail or not it is up to him but we can choose to take his plan or choose not to, sometimes we don't even recognize what his plan is for us. Human morals are beyond what God cares about in my opinion. There are two things in God's world as far he is concerned: Good and Evil. God chose free will for man because there is no greater love than unconditional love and this is not possible without free will. God has a plan for everyone but just because he has it doesn't mean everyone is doomed to follow it no matter what that's not free will, God gives us the choice. This topic is highly subjective and won't get much further than this. Faith is extremely difficult to debate because it deals with a dimension that we will never fully understand.

quote:

Originally posted by YNLissa:
My apologies clpo, that was my error and is now fixed.

Noooooooooo... I liked having my name up there with such a serious sounding title.

My apologies clpo, that was my error and is now fixed.

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
Hey, what? Curse you HL! You stole my glory.

*evil laugh*

I think it's cause for a while there my New York thread was up there...