Ha ha, the board of the day thing says I wrote this. I'm not complaining, but it's not really fair...
"I know of no safe repository of the ultimate power of society but the people. And if we think them not enlightened enough, the remedy is not to take power from them, but to inform them by education." Thomas Jefferson
si I realy am curious as to why people still teach it.
For lack of anything more substantial? I really can't say. Generally, science accepts the theory with the most evidence over any competing theories. The presence of cosmic microwave background radiation is the best evidence of the Big Bang, which is why it's so widely accepted. Like any scientific theory, it has it's holes, but you can't really prove something that happened billions of years ago. You can only extrapolate.
Heck, Albert Einstein believed in an infinite but static universe, so you can see that even the science community disagrees on what's going on.
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Ok, then, if the universe is expanding, how can we know it isn't growing? Yes, we never found the edge, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
True. The universe could have an edge and be growing, but that leads to the question of what's beyond the universe. Perhaps if you travel a certain amount of distance in the universe, you find yourself back at your starting point. How's that for hard to imagine?
Anyways, in a sense, the universe is finite. The speed of light imposes a maximum size of the observable universe. By this, I mean that if there is something further away than the speed of light times the current age of the universe, the light will not have reached us yet, and so we can't know anything about it. That doesn't mean that the universe isn't larger than we can see; we just can't prove whether it is or not.
As for the brain bit, if you're really doubting, I suppose you could always have an MRI. You can prove things like that, but you can't prove other stuff, since you can't get the evidence for that. Just like the edge of the universe. It could be there, but we'll probably never find it.
I have a couple British friends too, but they're both completely batty. Just thought I'd share that.
Einstein's theories are flawed. I can't remember which one it was, but I found a hole in it and killed the algebra. Alas, summer is a wonderful learning experince for me. XD
I can imagine that. I dreamt it once, right after dreaming the Labyrinth movie.
I know what's beyond the universe, but it sounds batty. Eternity is outside space and time, and if all space and time are contained in the universe, then the Big Bang works out.
Oh, I already know my brain is gone. Just look at my habits compared to the world. It's either me or the world. Personally, I think it's the world.
Phoenix is batty. He's as crazy as I am.
The Lord shall neither leave you nor forsake you. We are who abandon our creator, never vice versa. Trials and terrors of the world upon a Christian are just trials, strengthening our faith or destroying it altogether. Make the choice. Stay strong or believe in the lies.
si I realy am curious as to why people still teach it.
For lack of anything more substantial? I really can't say. Generally, science accepts the theory with the most evidence over any competing theories. The presence of cosmic microwave background radiation is the best evidence of the Big Bang, which is why it's so widely accepted. Like any scientific theory, it has it's holes, but you can't really prove something that happened billions of years ago. You can only extrapolate.
Heck, Albert Einstein believed in an infinite but static universe, so you can see that even the science community disagrees on what's going on.
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Ok, then, if the universe is expanding, how can we know it isn't growing? Yes, we never found the edge, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
True. The universe could have an edge and be growing, but that leads to the question of what's beyond the universe. Perhaps if you travel a certain amount of distance in the universe, you find yourself back at your starting point. How's that for hard to imagine?
Anyways, in a sense, the universe is finite. The speed of light imposes a maximum size of the observable universe. By this, I mean that if there is something further away than the speed of light times the current age of the universe, the light will not have reached us yet, and so we can't know anything about it. That doesn't mean that the universe isn't larger than we can see; we just can't prove whether it is or not.
As for the brain bit, if you're really doubting, I suppose you could always have an MRI. You can prove things like that, but you can't prove other stuff, since you can't get the evidence for that. Just like the edge of the universe. It could be there, but we'll probably never find it.
I have a couple British friends too, but they're both completely batty. Just thought I'd share that.
Originally posted by clpo13: Heh, it's not often I come across someone I disagree with and like. First time for everything, I guess.
Anyways, I'm not going to give you flak for your comment, but it really doesn't make any sense. If God knows what we're going to do, how can we do anything different? As I said in my earlier post, if God has a plan that he hopes we'll follow, then that's different than knowing what we're going to do before we do it. I really can't explain this more without repeating myself.
Look at it this way: knowing what we will do before we do it requires knowing the future. But the future isn't set in stone. Well, you could argue that it is, but that's a determinist position which denies free will. Anyways, the future is mutable, meaning that it's subject to change based on our actions. If we have free will, then we can do whatever we want, with the rather large possibility that our actions will affect what we do in the future, thus God cannot know what we will do unless he knows the future, which is impossible unless we don't have free will.
I hope that makes sense. I can always try to explain it better, if you still don't get where I'm coming from.
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Is the universe infinite? Is the universe growing? If the answer to both is yes, please explain teh LOGICAL and laymen's explanation to why something without end can be growing?
There is a difference between the universe growing and the universe expanding. The universe is not getting any bigger because something that is infinitely large (as the universe is) cannot possibly get bigger. Instead, the contents of the universe are spreading out, moving farther and farther away from each other or some unknown "center" of the universe. It's not really clear which of those two things is really happening, but it's clear, by examining light emanating from distant objects, that objects in the universe are getting farther and farther apart, which makes the universe seem like it's getting bigger when it really isn't.
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Also, please tell me how the big bang theory works
I'm a bit strapped for time now, so I'll just say that, from what I understand, there was something at the beginning of the universe. Everything was compacted into a minuscule point of matter, which exploded and began rapidly expanding into the current universe. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details as well, and it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, which is why it's just a theory. Scientists know it happened (due to background radiation and whatnot), but not quite how it happened. This might help.
First, thank you for proving me wrong on the flak issue. I appreciate it. Wiki-wiki never helped me on the big bang issues. I've used logic to disprove it, too, si I realy am curious as to why people still teach it.
I know where you're coming from, since that's the most logic I can make of it. I've a different wiring system in my head than most, so I've learned to translate.
Yay! Someone knows mutable! Nobody knows these awesome words. :\ Well, it's hard to explain the whole free will/God already knows issue, since I'm trying currently to prove that one by logic. It's proving harder than God's existence, which I managed to do, and I even let my agnostic mind search for loopholes to concrete >.< It took a long time.
Ok, then, if the universe is expanding, how can we know it isn't growing? Yes, we never found the edge, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen my brain, but I'm pretty sure it's there (though I can't say the same for certain people in my class o.0). I've never seen you, but I'm pretty sure you're about my age and just as smart as my British friend, Phoenix (e-name).
haha, my baby brother is whining coz his cup is leaking XD
The Lord shall neither leave you nor forsake you. We are who abandon our creator, never vice versa. Trials and terrors of the world upon a Christian are just trials, strengthening our faith or destroying it altogether. Make the choice. Stay strong or believe in the lies.
Heh, it's not often I come across someone I disagree with and like. First time for everything, I guess.
Anyways, I'm not going to give you flak for your comment, but it really doesn't make any sense. If God knows what we're going to do, how can we do anything different? As I said in my earlier post, if God has a plan that he hopes we'll follow, then that's different than knowing what we're going to do before we do it. I really can't explain this more without repeating myself.
Look at it this way: knowing what we will do before we do it requires knowing the future. But the future isn't set in stone. Well, you could argue that it is, but that's a determinist position which denies free will. Anyways, the future is mutable, meaning that it's subject to change based on our actions. If we have free will, then we can do whatever we want, with the rather large possibility that our actions will affect what we do in the future, thus God cannot know what we will do unless he knows the future, which is impossible unless we don't have free will.
I hope that makes sense. I can always try to explain it better, if you still don't get where I'm coming from.
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Is the universe infinite? Is the universe growing? If the answer to both is yes, please explain teh LOGICAL and laymen's explanation to why something without end can be growing?
There is a difference between the universe growing and the universe expanding. The universe is not getting any bigger because something that is infinitely large (as the universe is) cannot possibly get bigger. Instead, the contents of the universe are spreading out, moving farther and farther away from each other or some unknown "center" of the universe. It's not really clear which of those two things is really happening, but it's clear, by examining light emanating from distant objects, that objects in the universe are getting farther and farther apart, which makes the universe seem like it's getting bigger when it really isn't.
quote:
Also, please tell me how the big bang theory works
I'm a bit strapped for time now, so I'll just say that, from what I understand, there was something at the beginning of the universe. Everything was compacted into a minuscule point of matter, which exploded and began rapidly expanding into the current universe. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details as well, and it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, which is why it's just a theory. Scientists know it happened (due to background radiation and whatnot), but not quite how it happened. This might help.
Is the universe infinite? Is the universe growing? If the answer to both is yes, please explain teh LOGICAL and laymen's explanation to why something without end can be growing?
Also, please tell me how the big bang theory works (something coming from nothing), as I am incredibly curious on that particular subject.
Thank you.
The Lord shall neither leave you nor forsake you. We are who abandon our creator, never vice versa. Trials and terrors of the world upon a Christian are just trials, strengthening our faith or destroying it altogether. Make the choice. Stay strong or believe in the lies.
I like what conflictingzest said. I really like that "just because I knwo what youll do doesnt mean youll do it" comment.
Just liek I said, I'm goin to get flack, I am making a statement from past experience that I get attacked when I answer a religious question so deep and relevant as this one. I know I will, but that doesn't mean that you will actually fulfill that educated prediction.
However, in reading hte responses, I think I can safely say "clpo13 will be giving me flack of some sort when they read this post" and not be disproven. and if you disagree, I only prove my point.
f I know I have to do my school work on time if I want to pass, that doesn't mean I will do it. Trust me, I don't. I should, but I don't. Don't ask me why not, because I don't know either.
You remind me of an atheist friend I have in Britain, clpo13. It's a compliment.
God has a plan, and he knows what we are going to do. But, you see, he WANTS us to do the right thing, but He won't force us to. It is our choice to follow Him as much as it is His.
God made you, but he didn't make you a robot. He didn't make me a sheep either. BAA *grows wool and cloven hooves* Although it is an appropriate metaphor for the Lord's people, since He is the Great Shepherd :P
I ramble, you see, but I do have a point. It makes sense to me when I say "God gave us free will and He knows what we will do".
;D peace
The Lord shall neither leave you nor forsake you. We are who abandon our creator, never vice versa. Trials and terrors of the world upon a Christian are just trials, strengthening our faith or destroying it altogether. Make the choice. Stay strong or believe in the lies.
How do you know if something can exist outside of time or not? just because you don't understand it doesn't make it anymore or less true.
It's physics. Nothing can exist out of the space-time continuum. Just because you don't understand reality doesn't make it less true.
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Also guys, since when does God having a plan for your life take away your free will?
Because if God has a plan, that means our actions have already been planned out. If our actions have been planned out, we're not free.
If you mean that God hopes we will do certain things, then that's a different matter altogether. But if you're saying that he knows what we're doing before we do it, then that denies free will.
I'm not making it up. Besides ohh Great Phyics Master and Ruler of all things time related, How do you know if something can exist outside of time or not? just because you don't understand it doesn't make it anymore or less true.
Also guys, since when does God having a plan for your life take away your free will? You can have a plan but YOU have to choose to follow it. Welcome to free will.
This is one of those either one thing or the other, it can't be both. If we have free will, it means God does not have a plan, therefore we can choose what the "plan" is, we make it. But if there is a plan/destiny/blablabla then we don't have free will, we do not have control over our lives, and are simply robots who think have free will but in reality don't. If this second one were the case then like clpo said no one can be held accountable for his/her actions, which in turn means that I can go out and murder people and it's not actually me or my choice, it was part of God's plan, hence God's fault(and I don't think I need to point out that this would be extremely dangerous).
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
So just because i know what you're going to do that means you're going to go do it? does my knowing you're going to do something take away your free will on whether you'll do it or not? Just because God Knows doesn't mean you have no choice, it means God knows what choice you're going to make it.
There is a lot of ways of explaining this and they all involve technical theoretical explanation.
Basically, God exists outside of time. He sees everything all at once. so it's not that god knows because it's already been determined and you have no choice but it's that God has seen it already because he can see all points in time. i donno if i explained that well enough.
I do believe that God Knows what we're going to do
If God knows what we're going to do, then that means what we're going to do has already been determined, else God wouldn't know what we're going to do.
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Theoretically speaking, there are two types of people. The libertarians, and the determinists.
Well, there's also a third group called compatibilists who think that some things are determined yet we still have a small measure of free will (if we weren't forced to do something or if we wanted to do it, it was a free action, etc.).
I do believe that God Knows what we're going to do and he has a plan but he doesn't determine what we do. If he did determine that then there would be no free will.
Funny enough, we just finished talking about this sort of subject in one of my classes.
Theoretically speaking, there are two types of people. The libertarians, and the determinists. The libertarians believe that everything you do is a product of one's own free will, and that nothing in life is predetermined. Basically, there's no such thing as "fate". Determinists believe that everything we do is planned down to what we eat and what we wear. They believe that free will is only an illusion, you THINK you can choose whether to eat the blueberry muffin or not, but in the end you were always MEANT to eat it.
As for this relationship with religion, the only thing that I can say is this seems like one of the reason's we have separation of church and state in America. If Christianity were the religion than people could use predeterminism as an excuse for their sins. Not saying that people don't already do that, but perhaps it'd be easier to get off the hook then.
Just my thoughts
--------------------------------------------------------I can't do this all on my own. No, I know. I'm no superman.
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