Our salvation is dependant on God, we have no power to save ourselves.
Bull. If we have no power to save ourselves, than we would all be going to hell. Why, even by your standards, choosing to believe in God(TM) is within our power, and thus we do something to 'save ourselves.' Or 'ask for forgiveness' as you've said... You kind of just contradicted yourself. But, anywho, that is a pretty sad statement. One that might possibly make people lose hope...
"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
I just have some quotes that fit into this argument (I'm a very quote oriented person, if I see something I like, I add it to a list I have of favorite quotes, and I refer to them often while in meditation...)
"All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life – to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child – to make a happy home – to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.
God did not reward men for being honest, generous and brave, but for the act of faith. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins, and the men who practiced these virtues, without faith, deserved to suffer eternal pain.
All of the conforting and reasonable things were taught by the ministers in their pulpits – by teachers in Sunday schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were assaulted in the cradle – in their mother’s arms. Then, the schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense and the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled with lies – lies that mingled with their blood." -Robert G. Ingersoll
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -Thomas Jefferson
"Hands that help are far better then lips that pray." -Robert G. Ingersoll
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Our salvation is dependant on God, we have no power to save ourselves.
You know, for some time now, I have made a theory. That theory is that a person's religion (faith, dogma, beliefs, etc.) is going to correspond to what makes them feel most comfortable in life. The volunteer will believe that good deeds/works will be what counts; the lazy will believe that all it takes is a simple belief.
It's a good thing to think about. Why do beliefs matter? I could believe that it is a good thing to do my homework, but never actually do it. Just like you could think it a good thing to do community service, but never actually do it. So, is that belief going to be more valuable than an action? I have hundreds of thoughts cross my mind every day, but they are just thoughts until I take action with them; then they count for more... It's just ridiculous (to me) to think that what you believe is more important than what you do...
"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
Our salvation is dependant on God, we have no power to save ourselves.
Bah. Only people who don't have the strength (or will) to do things themselves say that.
Hmm, I just had an interesting thought. Under the Constitution of the United States, I'm granted the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Yet, according to Christianity (or any religion for that matter), those rights are forfeit unless I convert. And if I do convert, I must follow all the rules of the religion. And there are many religions that say I have to convert to them, and not the other, and vice versa.. So in essence, religion violates my apparently God-given rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. A bit of a contradiction, what?
Why can't you guys just let me live my life how I want to? Is it such a crime that I don't want to be involved in this knock-down-drag-out religious conflict? Free will, indeed...
I always ask people to think of it this way: Let's say Mr. Muslim is awesome. He's nice to people, he does good things, he helps out, he's humble, he never asks for praise but is kind nonetheless. And he believes wholeheartedly in Allah, prays...how many is it? Five times a day? Well, he prays how every many times he's supposed to and he follows the basic principles of Islam which are - believe it or not - quite similar to Christianity. He has never even heard of Christianity, the Christian God, etc. (Which is possible if he lives in one of the countries that is predominantly Muslim). He is a good person, especially on the inside.
How can you say he will go to Hell simply because he doesn't believe in the Christian God?
Because no one is perfect. Mr.Muslium has sinned, as every one has, and no ammount of good works will change that. We cannot win heaven with good works, or good behavior. You seem to have forgotton that. One must recive forgiveness in order to be "perfect, as [God] is perfect." (Matthew 5:43) and able to set foot in heaven. Our salvation is dependant on God, we have no power to save ourselves.
Originally posted by historybuff: So worth... no matter what religion I pick I can't be wrong is that what you are saying?
In a way, yes. I mean, I don't know what will happen to people who aren't good people but I'm thinking they maybe reincarnate into like a really terrible somethingorother. But for people who are good and well-meaning and kind, I don't think there is a wrong religion.
I always ask people to think of it this way: Let's say Mr. Muslim is awesome. He's nice to people, he does good things, he helps out, he's humble, he never asks for praise but is kind nonetheless. And he believes wholeheartedly in Allah, prays...how many is it? Five times a day? Well, he prays how every many times he's supposed to and he follows the basic principles of Islam which are - believe it or not - quite similar to Christianity. He has never even heard of Christianity, the Christian God, etc. (Which is possible if he lives in one of the countries that is predominantly Muslim). He is a good person, especially on the inside.
How can you say he will go to Hell simply because he doesn't believe in the Christian God? That doesn't make sense. Yes, I am Christian, and I believe in the Christian God so I believe I'm going to go to Heaven. But I don't think Mr. Muslim shouldn't go to his happy place (what to they do in the afterlife in Islam...I need to brush up on this stuff) just because he doesn't believe (or possibly hasn't even heard of) the Christian God. That, in my mind, would be wrong.
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Christ she is just saying be a good person.
Thanks for the support and the clear, concise statement (I'm not very good at those).
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a good atheist or buddhist or whatever you are is better than a bad christian. simple.
Again, this hits the nail on the head. If you are a good person but an atheist or a buddhist then you are better (in a way - no one is really better but you know what I mean...) then someone who claims to be a Christian and maybe even someone who really believes in God but is not a good person. (Which technicially there is no such person...if you are truly a Christian then the good actions should follow...but that's an entirely 'nother subject).
Belief makes things real/Makes things feel, feel alright/Belief makes things true/Things like you, you and I
a good atheist or buddhist or whatever you are is better than a bad christian. simple.
if father idochildrenintheass says that a bad christian is better than a good whatever else he has just made a big mistake.
What kind of God would want a bad one of his own people over a good foreigner?
also have you ever just thought that while we are arguing about who is going to hell yad yada we are completely forgetting that we could be wrong and christianity could be a big crock of sh*t hoax.
I had a pretty interesting debate on somnthing similar to this in my school
I go to a private school, a christian school. My Bible teacher is Baptist and my German teacher is a big Lutheran. I would go back and forht between the to guys and they would both tell me the opposite of what the other would tell me. When it came to the question of what would happen to a person who never heard of Christ and died, my Lutheran teacher said this in a roundabout way:
We all desrve to go to Hell because we are all born with original sin. That is what would be fair. But God chose to offer Heaven to those who would believe. Believe. What is believeing? You dont believe. You dont do a darn thing to get Salvation. You dont have faith and you dont believe. GOD CHOSE TO SAVE YOU. HE CHOSE YOU.
He is of course speaking of pre-destination. If there is an issue riles up Christians into a heated debate, it is pre-destination. For those who are ignorant, pre-destination is the belief that since God is all-knowing, He knows who will choose him and who wouldnt. So basically he "hand-picks" trhose he wants to save.
Personally this issue has shot my brain. I dont know what to think. It doesnt seem right to me that God would allow some to go to Heaven and others not. But then again who am I to criticize God? I dont know I have been struggling with pre-destination for years now.
There's no way Christianity is the only way to achieve salvation/nirvana etc. I mean, what about all the cultures that never heard of Jesus? Would they have all gone to Hell? Nuh-uh.
I think Hell is just an invention meant to satisfy vengeful people.
I think the important thing is beliving that Jesus Christ died on the Cross, rose again, was God's one and only son-- believing that in him we are saved and asking him into our hearts and living as best we can to serve him. I think those things (the really clear things) are what every Christian should agree on, everything else we should seek God's wisedom (not our own reasoning) to figure out and if we are wrong God can tell us so. But if you (or I) are wrong about something, but you truly have a loving relationship we're not going to go to hell or anything for.. God knows we're human... and we'll know when we die..hahaha. But yah as long as you' ve accepted him and are following the ovious and truly seeking his name it should all fall into place in the end.
Originally posted by historybuff: I know there are mediphors and stories (not all of the parables are not true...but their maessages are and Jesus never claimed that they were true...)
Even though I think you are mistaken I am glad that you are a Christian and that you are reading you're Bible... God is open to work in both our lives
Well that's very nice of you. But if you think I am "mistaken" may I ask something of you?
Do you think that all Christians must share the same opinions and views on issues at least to a certain extent?
Belief makes things real/Makes things feel, feel alright/Belief makes things true/Things like you, you and I
That is true, but there are so many more prophecies in the Bible about Jesus return not involving the anti-Christ...
Amos 9:14-15 "I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God."
"Amos lived about 2700 years ago, during a time when the people of Israel were being forced out of their homeland by a succession of foreign invasions. Despite many centuries of exile, many Jews returned to Israel and reclaimed sovereignty over a portion of their ancient homeland. This declaration of independence, in 1948, triggered a war with the surrounding countries, which objected to the presence of a Jewish state. On May 15, 1948, the day that armies from the surrounding countries invaded, Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League, said "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." Similar quotes were uttered by others during the war of 1948-49 and during the two major wars that followed. Despite its tiny size, Israel prevailed in these wars, preventing its people from being uprooted again, as they had been in ancient times."
Isaiah 66:7-8 "Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."
"In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.
During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.
Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia."
Jeremiah 16:14-15 "However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, `As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, `As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers."
"In Jeremiah 16:14-15, the prophet said the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. In many regards, it is. The first time that Israel was established as a country was after Moses led the descendants of Jacob (typically referred to today as Jews) out of Egypt, where they had been enslaved for 400 years. They then conquered Canaan and established Israel about 3400 years ago. But the second time that Israel was established was after the Jews had been scattered far and wide for a few thousand years. This time the Jews had to return from as far away as the United States, China, Russia and South Africa."
There are many more prophecies which God has fulfilled such as: Israel will become an international issue (Zechariah 12: 1-5), the world will be able to simaltaniously wittness world events (Revelations 11:9-10), Zechariah foretold modern warfare (Zechariah 14:12)
*many of the quotes are from 100prophecies.org you can find many websites on this topic not to mention you can just look in a Bible (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi are the books of prophecy in the old testament.)
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