I just want to know what people think about where morality,values,principles etc, come from.

I think, for the most part, people are inherantly good...none of this original sin crap...but I think people (in their childhood years) are good and innocent, and then their environment makes them establish their values, beliefs, etc.

Celtic, sounds like you have really been hurt. I have experienced pain and loss also. To me it sounds like you really need to sort some of that stuff out. Whether you take comfort in this or not I care not, but I will pray for you. That you'll have some clarity on those issues.

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I don't think the reasoning, "God directed me in my battles when I killed all of those men, women, and children." is a good enough excuse.

Did you know that in that era, there was a time of year when Kings would go out to war?

There was a set time for it, they would go and fight, if you didn't fight, you would be attacked, that's how it was. The armies of Israel were protected and directed by God, so that the nation would not be destroyed.So God in his infinite wisdom, told them how and when and sometimes who to attack.

Do you honestly think that they should not have fought their enemies?

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If you wouldn't mind taking the trouble to explain it I would like to hear what you have to say. Even if I don't understand it.

I've very mixed feelings of killing. I would not kill my family, for example, because I love them and I would feel very guilty of murdering them.

I do have a fantasy, however, of killing the man I love. Not because of anger/hatred/anything of the sort, but because if dead, they can't leave me or hurt me. It's my necrophilic desire. I would kill that whom I love. Or think I would.

Then again, I have had boyfriends whom I loved that I did not want to kill. I wanted to hurt them; to my last boyfriend I held a knife to his throat, not because I was angry or anything, but because I feel that if he trusts me like he said he does, he would let me hold a gun to his head and wouldn't flinch. So I held a knife to his throat and made a small cut. He did nothing. That was proof to me that he loved and trusted me. The pain he feels when I do that is a symbol of our bad times, a kiss I give him means the good. Maybe I'm just a crazy sadist, but that's how I see it.

I felt betrayed when I asked my boyfriend to cut me in the back of my neck and he didn't. I understand that he doesn't want to abuse me, but I was asking him to do it. For the same reason above. And he didn't. This hurt me greatly.

Then again sometimes I want to kill my best friend. But him I want dead because he has hurt me beforehand emotionally; backstabbed and such.

My boyfriend cheated on me once, and funny, I did not want the girl dead, even if she DID clearly know that he was dating me. I felt no anger towards her at all. Nor him. I wasn't hurt or anything. But I wanted to kill him so that I could keep his body and he'd be mine.

There are so many people close to me that I would not care if they died; I just woudln't. And there are people close to me that I'd go in an insane depression if they died. I have the theory that some deserve to live and others don't need to.

Then there are some people whom I use and then want dead. Not because of anything against them, just that they have no purpose in my life anymore.

So that's basically it. I haven't killed anyone, this is just what I've thought. Of course, maybe I'd be a coward and not be able to kill anyone, but it's my thought.

Maybe that is just a reflection of how I feel towards people, if you note my wanting to kill my lover is to ensure security that he will be there, for example. I sometimes think I have just been so hurt throughout my life in various ways that I turn to these odd fantasies to reflect what I feel. I really don't know.

Feel free to ask me the same question. Like I just said under "The good things about Christiaity" (I think that's the post) I just said, "I was raised in a hardcore "Christian" family. Church 3 times a week. Had to read the bible front to back once a year. I didn't leave their church til I was 20, so that's a lot of reading the bible from about age 13 on. I'm not even Christian, and I still browse through the bible. It's a great work of fiction... in my opinion."

So, yes, I've read the bible front to back several times. I cross referenced, countered it other parts of the bible, reviewed it, and even gave talks in front of the congregation.

I don't think the reasoning, "God directed me in my battles when I killed all of those men, women, and children." is a good enough excuse.

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Originally posted by BoMoWo:

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Have you personally read the bible? Talk about gore and slaughtering people! These were instructions from God.

I might ask you the same question, How many times have you read the first five books of the Bible? How many in-depth studies have you done on them? How many courses of study have you taken to understand what happened in them?

God made a covenant with Abraham, that all of his descendants would be called God's people, all others would not be blessed because they were unrighteous and unholy.

God also ordered these things because he knew what would happen if they didn't destroy these nations.

Besides, looking at it historically, if a kingdom did not destroy it's enemies entirly, then they would end up being destroyed by some other nation, it was survival more than anything, God just directed the battles.

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Have you personally read the bible? Talk about gore and slaughtering people! These were instructions from God.

I might ask you the same question, How many times have you read the first five books of the Bible? How many in-depth studies have you done on them? How many courses of study have you taken to understand what happened in them?

God made a covenant with Abraham, that all of his descendants would be called God's people, all others would not be blessed because they were unrighteous and unholy.

God also ordered these things because he knew what would happen if they didn't destroy these nations.

Besides, looking at it historically, if a kingdom did not destroy it's enemies entirly, then they would end up being destroyed by some other nation, it was survival more than anything, God just directed the battles.

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But isn't the concept of being moral the whole point of believing in God? You believe in God so that your sins can be washed away...but, you only know what is a sin and what is not if you believe in God...

The concept of being moral is only a small part of believing in God, yes we are to pursue righteousness and holiness, but as for confessing our sins to God and believing in Him, there is a much better reason than being moral.

I don't want to be a sinner in the hands of an angry God, not to say that God is angry, understand my point. He is just, and if I do not come to Him and repent then I will be sentenced to an eternity in hell burning forever for my transgressions.

So the concept of believing in God is both about fearing God first, and then allowing His grace and mercy to work righteousness and morals in our hearts.

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So their morality means nothing to God but can it not mean anything to any other deity?

If someone's ultimate destiny is in the hands of God, then all other deities are worthless, however let me state my beliefs on other deities.

demons are other deities, why? simply because they are a spirit, they can possess people without Christ, and can in a way rule over peoples lives. So if someone has complete control over you they are, in a sense your God. So in the same way a demon who has control over a person is there God.

Objects can be God's because people worship Idols, and get lost in the pursuitof material things.

So in addressing the question further, I am sure that the demons love it when someone has a false sense of hope for their eternity. As for objects, they don't have brains so I doubt they care.

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Originally posted by BoMoWo:
So in answer to your question, Morals come from God.

Have you personally read the bible? Talk about gore and slaughtering people! These were instructions from God.

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Originally posted by BoMoWo:
Absolutely not, The Bible says in Romans that "The law of God is written upon the hearts of men" Thus a conscience, however the law is made to reveal to men their sins, that they might come to God and repent.

I believe that they can be and some are moral in many ways. Yet again there morality means nothing to God unless they acknowledge Him as Lord and repent.

But isn't the concept of being moral the whole point of believing in God? You believe in God so that your sins can be washed away...but, you only know what is a sin and what is not if you believe in God...

So their morality means nothing to God but can it not mean anything to any other deity?

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The other because I don't care for humans I don't know, and even if I know them sometimes I don't care. My idea of whom I would kill is complex and doubt you'd understand.

If you wouldn't mind taking the trouble to explain it I would like to hear what you have to say. Even if I don't understand it.

There really isnt such thing as a true good or bad. There is the hierarchy of goods that describes this. If u have ever seen or read lord of the flies, u think that Jack was doing wrong because he made a lot of the boys turn against Ralph for food and made them enemies. He had his reasons for a good purpose according to him, because he wanted to be a leader, and he did lead well. The others followed him, and even tho it seems they did wrong in doing so, their good was to get food to survive. It is rather hard to understsand. Read aristotle to learn about the hierarchy of goods

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If it's some guy I don't know, I would not feel guilt, none at all.

Exactly how could you possibly know that? I mean I don't think you killed anybody, but you have no idea how you'd feel, no matter who you are or how well you know yourself.

Good debating the topic with you, I enjoyed it.

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You say here that if it was family you would feel guilt, why is that?

Because I am close to my family.

The other because I don't care for humans I don't know, and even if I know them sometimes I don't care. My idea of whom I would kill is complex and doubt you'd understand.

And, thanks, you proved I proved my point that some may not feel guilt

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If it's a family member/friend, yes, I would not kill the person.

If it's some guy I don't know, I would not feel guilt, none at all.

You say here that if it was family you would feel guilt, why is that?

And if it was someone you don't know none at all, again, why?

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You and one other person, the only two people alive, you murder the other person, would you feel guilt?

If it's a family member/friend, yes, I would not kill the person.

If it's some guy I don't know, I would not feel guilt, none at all.

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If the answer is yes, then my challenge to you is to find anyone who genuinely would not feel guilt, and introduce me to them.

Psycopaths of the distempered, charismatic, and primary type. The secondary psycopath may feel some guilt/worry, but not enough to eat their souls.

Sociopaths of the alienated and aggressive type as well.

And most people with antisocial personality disorder as well.

And Sadists of the extreme form, but those are usually of the ones above mentioned above, but not all.

Also, the revenge murderer (who is not an actual psycopath or sociopath or has antisocial personality disorder) may not feel guilt as they are "getting back" at the person.

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If I understand correctly, you are saying the whole "faith not works" deal. Which, of course, is true. However, these actions come from the faith in God...so are you saying that anyone who is not Christian is also not moral?

Absolutely not, The Bible says in Romans that "The law of God is written upon the hearts of men" Thus a conscience, however the law is made to reveal to men their sins, that they might come to God and repent.

I believe that they can be and some are moral in many ways. Yet again there morality means nothing to God unless they acknowledge Him as Lord and repent.

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Perhaps I should refine my scenario BoMoWo. Let's say that the job I'm applying for is a job that has been open for a long time with no applicants. There is no one who wants to take the job. And I apply, even though I'm underage. Now, just who was wronged there?

I understand your point, and I would say this, you have only harmed yourself as far as anyone knows. If, by some chance your boss finds out, you will at most lose your job, at least you will have created distrust between him and you. And then again, how do you know but that you get the job, and that same day another applicant that is qualified needs the job.

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For the record, I know lying on an application form is illegal, but I did say the situation was hypothetical, didn't I?

However hypothetical it may be, we must remember to examine every aspect shouldn't we?

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Also, I do indeed think that what people don't know won't hurt them. For instance, why bother telling my parents I accidentally ran a stop sign a few days ago? There is no reason for it. And so long as I don't get fined for it, it won't affect them at all. So in my mind, that isn't wrong. Besides, I don't tell my parents everything about my life. Some stuff is meant to be kept private, don't you agree?

I do agree that some things are meant to be kept private, but I would ask the motivation for not telling them, if it is to avoid punishment, then you have as good as lied.

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Um, no. A true murderer would not feel guilt even if the planet found out.

Celtic, I have a question and a challenge for you.

The question first: Can you personally tell me in this hypothetical situation right here whether you would feel guilt or not. Here's the situation:

You and one other person, the only two people alive, you murder the other person, would you feel guilt?

If the answer is yes, then my challenge to you is to find anyone who genuinely would not feel guilt, and introduce me to them.