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Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6045
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The most important tenet of the Christian faith is that Jesus was raised from the dead. Without it, things pretty much fall apart. Now, I'm not trying to pick on Christianity. I'm merely continuing this argument from an unrelated thread. Now, this website claims to have proof of Jesus' resurrection. I find their proof somewhat lacking, in that it consists mostly of quotes directly from the Bible. That's trying to win an argument by providing as a source the very thing you're arguing for. So, I'll go methodically through the "proofs" listed on the aforementioned page and explain my rebuttals to them. Shall we? Jesus himself foretold his death and resurrection, and these events came about exactly as he had predicted.Really now? So if I predict that I'm going to stub my toe the next time I walk out the door and that very thing happens, am I suddenly a Prophet? Or perhaps someone misheard (or misread) my claim and assumed I said I was going to walk out the door in the near future. Then it would seem like even more of a miracle. Wow! He predicted he would walk through that door...and he did! Amazing! Let's worship him! The point is that we don't know for sure what exactly Jesus said regarding his death. Perhaps he knew that what he was preaching would get him unwanted attention from the Jews and Romans, thus causing him great pain, and even death, sometime in the near future. Jesus never even specifies when he's going to be killed. He merely says "in a little while," which makes perfect sense considering what I said about the Jews and Romans. It's much like a union organizer speaking in the middle of a crowded street during the Red Scare of the '40s and '50s. He feels that what he preaches is right, yet he also knows that sooner or later, anti-socialists will catch him and persecute him for what he believes. One doesn't need the powers of foresight in order to figure that out. The event is well-documented by numerous reliable, historical sources.The historical sources given are Josephus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and Tertullian. Granted, I recognize Josephus as the most complete and reliable source of events in biblical times, yet Josephus was still a product of his time period. Things that we see as commonplace, people like Josephus may have seen as miraculous, much as a vaccination for polio may have seemed to people in the 1940s. The resurrection is the only plausible explanation for the empty grave.What empty grave? The one that the Bible tells about? Here again, this isn't true proof. The Bible as a history book isn't infallible. The site doesn't even address the lack of proof for there even being an empty grave. And assuming that there was, and acknowledging that the disciples were unable or unwilling to retrieve the body of Jesus nor was Jesus himself able to remove the stone and outwit the guards, there are still many plausible explanations for the grave being devoid of a corpse. For instance, the body might have never been in the grave. The cave where Jesus was allegedly buried was purchased and provided by a disciple (Joseph of Aramethea), thus it can be assumed that the disciples wished to make Jesus appear as if he escaped and never actually put the body inside the grave to give such an appearance. A bold claim, yes, but so is being raised from the dead. The only difference is that my claim has the added advantage of being plausible. There are numerous eyewitnesses to the resurrection.There are numerous eyewitnesses to UFOs, as well, but we don't form religions around aliens, now do we? Now, I will concede that it was not mass hallucination (such things don't occur), but there is not one iota of evidence to rule out a conspiracy. The disciples weren't stupid. They knew what Jesus was saying would change the world. Yet with him dead, the new faith would be ground to dust by the older and better established Jewish religion. Thus, why not create a myth based around Jesus' life? If they could make him seem to have risen from the dead and talked with them, people would think that God really was working to change things. It only takes a few to convince the many. The rapid spread of communism in the 20th century stands testament to that. The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the beginning of the Christian movement.See above. The site has this to say about my conspiracy claim: "Clearly, this would have been impossible if the resurrection was a fabricated story." Clearly? It's anything but clear. A well thought-up story can convince anyone, especially if there exists a desire for change, as there was during that time period. The resurrection is the only logical explanation for the transformed lives of the disciples.The disciples were "transformed" even before Jesus was killed. They saw Jesus' message for the truth, and thus went on from there. Yes, they were discouraged after Jesus' death, but so were the original Muslims after Muhammad died after his long illness. And while Muhammad wasn't resurrected, Islam spread even more rapidly than Christianity. The resurrection is not the only logical explanation for the disciples spreading his message. Throughout the centuries, most great scholars who have considered the proofs of the resurrection have believed, and still believe, that Jesus is alive.What kind of proof is this? One can be a great scholar and still be a Christian. They believe in the resurrection because they are or were men and women of the faith, not necessarily because there was overwhelming evidence to prove it. Now I know I didn't address everything, and for that I apologize. If there's anything else from the site that you wish to debate, just bring it up. And as a final note, let me make it clear that I am not anti-Christian nor am I an atheist. I believe in God, yet I do not believe Jesus was semi-divine, as the Bible states. Hopefully this post explained some of the reasons why I think that way.
The more you know, the less you don't know.
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Registered: January 22, 2005
Posts: 716
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quote: there are millions of stories of people who are/will willing to die for a myth??? no for truth. for what they believe in.
Did you know that there were a lot of British druid matyrs? When the romans came, we all retreated to the isle of Anglesey, and got slaughtered by the Romans for what we beleived in. Does that mean that what we believe is true? No certainly not, which is why I am now a philosophical taoist.
Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning, nor does a sudden shower last the entire day.
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Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6045
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Why do you people insist on explaining to me what I already know?
The more you know, the less you don't know.
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Registered: August 09, 2006
Posts: 9
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http://www.carm.org/bible/prophecy.htmthis website will help u at one point u can do all the debating u want. but it comes down to faith, "now faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see." (heb 11:1) your right we will never know 100% sure of anything. not until we get to heaven. another thing if the resurrection wasn't true, why would so many have people died. wouldn't ONE of them had said, "ok, ok sorry it was just a big joke, don't kill me." but no. there are millions of stories of people who are/will willing to die for a myth??? no for truth. for what they believe in. the only real explanation of the Christian "movement" is the Holy Spirit. he is the one that moves in people's lives. i can say all i want to you, but until the holy spirit comes and works in your life, it wont matter. and the bible is perfect "all scripture is God breathed" which means (since God is inerrant) that what he says is inerrant. and yes it was written by mortal man. but God was speaking to them to tell them what to say.
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Registered: May 15, 2005
Posts: 307
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quote: Originally posted by clpo13:
Jesus himself foretold his death and resurrection, and these events came about exactly as he had predicted.
Really now? So if I predict that I'm going to stub my toe the next time I walk out the door and that very thing happens, am I suddenly a Prophet? Or perhaps someone misheard (or misread) my claim and assumed I said I was going to walk out the door in the near future. Then it would seem like even more of a miracle. Wow! He predicted he would walk through that door...and he did! Amazing! Let's worship him!
Remember that Jesus is the Son of God, therefore he had the ability to see these things.
The point is that we don't know for sure what exactly Jesus said regarding his death. Perhaps he knew that what he was preaching would get him unwanted attention from the Jews and Romans, thus causing him great pain, and even death, sometime in the near future.
Jesus knew that his actions would cause problems, but he knew also how it would end. He accepted his death in order to fulfill what he came to earth for.
The resurrection is the only plausible explanation for the empty grave.
What empty grave? The one that the Bible tells about? Here again, this isn't true proof. The Bible as a history book isn't infallible. The site doesn't even address the lack of proof for there even being an empty grave. And assuming that there was, and acknowledging that the disciples were unable or unwilling to retrieve the body of Jesus nor was Jesus himself able to remove the stone and outwit the guards, there are still many plausible explanations for the grave being devoid of a corpse. For instance, the body might have never been in the grave. The cave where Jesus was allegedly buried was purchased and provided by a disciple (Joseph of Aramethea), thus it can be assumed that the disciples wished to make Jesus appear as if he escaped and never actually put the body inside the grave to give such an appearance.
The entire town watched as the Romans put Jesus into the tomb. I'm not exactly sure that it was Joseph who gave his tomb to him, but who it was is not eniterly important. In political cases, commoners like the Jews were not allowed to put criminals into tombs by themselves. romans were present.
There are numerous eyewitnesses to the resurrection.
Hallucinations are improbable. If the entire group of remaining apostles and the two mary's were seeing the same thing, that must have been some wacked out hallucination.
The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the beginning of the Christian movement.
See above. The site has this to say about my conspiracy claim: "Clearly, this would have been impossible if the resurrection was a fabricated story." Clearly? It's anything but clear. A well thought-up story can convince anyone, especially if there exists a desire for change, as there was during that time period.
Another, more obvious Christian thing is the death of Jesus. The Communion is the important part of mass for Catholics. Other Chrisitans, maybe. The fact that Jesus resurrected is not what the main focus is, but how he died for the sins of others, and his life teachings. We only hope to be with him and God in heaven by his sacrifice.
The resurrection is the only logical explanation for the transformed lives of the disciples.
The disciples were "transformed" even before Jesus was killed. They saw Jesus' message for the truth, and thus went on from there.
The Pentecost is when the deciples were visiited by tongues of fire by the holy spirit. This is when they were able to go out and preach to all the nations. they left everything for it..
Throughout the centuries, most great scholars who have considered the proofs of the resurrection have believed, and still believe, that Jesus is alive.
I agree with this. Jesus is not alive, he is spirit. Divine spiritness (if thats a word) is not being alive.
And as a final note, let me make it clear that I am not anti-Christian nor am I an atheist. I believe in God, yet I do not believe Jesus was semi-divine, as the Bible states. Hopefully this post explained some of the reasons why I think that way.
I understand, and i thank you for being honest about your beliefs.
It is essential that justice be done, and it is equally vital that justice not be confused with revenge, for the two are wholly different. OSCAR ARIA
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Registered: August 20, 2003
Posts: 1689
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Heh. Exactly.
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mystical. It is the source of all true art and science. --Albert Einstein
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Registered: September 29, 2004
Posts: 3690
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quote: Originally posted by faerienite:
Don't get sucked into fretting over the one "right" religion.
That's because we all know it's Scientology. 
A lo hecho, pecho.
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Registered: August 20, 2003
Posts: 1689
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quote: really? how many people do you know that have been walking and talking normally 3 days after their death?
Not many, but then again they probably wouldn't tell me if they had died. :] The point of that was to express that God is not as external and far away from us, especially when he is believed in. quote: Originally posted by plasteredwalls:
Originally posted by faerienite:
Reincarnation happens all the time. If you belive that the son of God could do it, why not others?
Because we're not God. Or God's Son. Or the Holy Spirit.
That's what I hate most about religion. People believe that God is some superhuman force that would conquer anything and is created in our image, yet we're measly empty humans whose purpose is to worship and fear God. quote: For all you know the RIGHT religon could be Buddisam.
Don't get sucked into fretting over the one "right" religion.
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mystical. It is the source of all true art and science. --Albert Einstein
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Registered: March 10, 2006
Posts: 105
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quote: Originally posted by plasteredwalls: quote: Originally posted by clpo13:
Really now? So if I predict that I'm going to stub my toe the next time I walk out the door and that very thing happens, am I suddenly a Prophet?
Well it's completely normal to stab your toe. HOwever, it is not normal to rise again. He said he would rise again, after he had died, and he did. Stabbing your toe is nowhere near as remarkable. For that is just a coincidence. Rising from the dead is something that cannot be done. Yet, by him, it was done. Stabbin your toe is something that can easily happen.
Well plasterdwalls have you ever seen 'jesus or god' before? No I didnt think so. Im not trying to make you sway a different way, just plainly showing you that u cant tell me or anyone else that some one rose from the dead, when you and no one has true proof of a man named jesus. For all you know the RIGHT religon could be Buddisam.
"Live your life to the fullest cause soon it will be over"
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Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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oops didn't mean to double post sorry
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Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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quote: Originally posted by plasteredwalls:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by faerienite:
Reincarnation happens all the time. If you belive that the son of God could do it, why not others?
Because we're not God. Or God's Son. Or the Holy Spirit. |
Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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quote: Originally posted by faerienite:
Reincarnation happens all the time. If you belive that the son of God could do it, why not others?
Because we're not God. Or God's Son. Or the HOly Spirit. |
Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13980
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really? how many people do you know that have been walking and talking normally 3 days after their death?
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: August 20, 2003
Posts: 1689
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quote: HOwever, it is not normal to rise again...Rising from the dead is something that cannot be done.
Not really. Reincarnation happens all the time. If you belive that the son of God could do it, why not others?
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mystical. It is the source of all true art and science. --Albert Einstein
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Registered: December 14, 2005
Posts: 204
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quote: Originally posted by Brehon:
I suggest looking on google video for a program called 'The Death of Atheism'. It is rather entertaining.
OMFG BANANAS ARE T3H ATHEIST'S WORST NIGHTMARE!!ONE!@!ELEVEN!!!3625!!SIXTY EIGHT!!2112! |
Registered: March 16, 2006
Posts: 39
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quote: Originally posted by clpo13:
Really now? So if I predict that I'm going to stub my toe the next time I walk out the door and that very thing happens, am I suddenly a Prophet?
Well it's completely normal to stab your toe. HOwever, it is not normal to rise again. He said he would rise again, after he had died, and he did. Stabbing your toe is nowhere near as remarkable. For that is just a coincidence. Rising from the dead is something that cannot be done. Yet, by him, it was done. Stabbin your toe is something that can easily happen. |
Registered: January 22, 2005
Posts: 716
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I suggest looking on google video for a program called 'The Death of Atheism'. It is rather entertaining.
Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning, nor does a sudden shower last the entire day.
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Registered: August 20, 2003
Posts: 1689
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Pretty_pink, that's an extremely weak argument when debating religion. Plus, your atrocious spelling and grammar were annoying to the eye, though they entertain me as you are arguing understandable posts in your hardly legible one.
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mystical. It is the source of all true art and science. --Albert Einstein
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Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6045
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I really like to piss people off. What better way to do that than question their religion? Everybody can do with a good cage rattling every now and then. To tell the truth, I do this because I want people to open their eyes to other things. If people go around assuming that some Middle Easterner who was fair-skinned and had a flowing beard died and was raised from the dead so we could all go live in paradise with his daddy who happens to look a lot like Zeus, they obviously won't be open to learning about things that might just go contrary to that rather absurd belief. It really is quite absurd if you take a step back and look at it. Fair-skinned with a flowing beard? In the Middle East? Last I checked, people there have a darker complexion with shorter, curlier beards, even 2000 years ago. At any rate, I am attempting to sow reason. That is what I believe in most strongly along with my belief in the Creator, who is not the Christian God nor is he anything like it. I love truth, and I hate it when people refuse to be open to it. That is why I question religion. Yes, it's rather high-minded and overly noble, but I couldn't really care less.
The more you know, the less you don't know.
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Registered: March 10, 2006
Posts: 105
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Clypo i dont understand that you dont like ppl have their own misunderstandins and understanding. Theiris no damn proof their is a jesus or god. They say its based on a beleif called FAITH but faith means not knowing but beleving so let ppl beleive wat they want AND LEAVE IT ALONE
"Live your life to the fullest cause soon it will be over"
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