We're required to stand aswell. Though, if you don't say it, no one really notices because these two girls yell the pledge (which is annoying). I'm not sure if we're actually forced to say it though.

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Originally posted by Karategirl28:
i am only required to stand for the pledge, i do not recite it or put my hand over my heart.
Personally the under god thing doesn't bother me, every religion has a god or (s) unless youre atheist...You are not required to say the pledge anyways if you don't want to or don't belive in it.

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I never said it because I was not directly represented by the government in high school. I think that forcing kids to say the pledge is like forcing a particular view down their throat, kinda like brainwashing.

i am only required to stand for the pledge, i do not recite it or put my hand over my heart.
Personally the under god thing doesn't bother me, every religion has a god or (s) unless youre atheist...You are not required to say the pledge anyways if you don't want to or don't belive in it.

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he stas n tha pleg i luv ma cuntree

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I'm sorry... say again.

i luv god

he stas n tha pleg i luv ma cuntree

No this is a nation that HAS poverty disease and violence. that has nothing to do with god's name being in the pledge! Good try though

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Originally posted by geminiangel521:
This is also one nation under poverty, disease, and violence: aspects of life equated with God. Does this mean we should therefore affix that into our Pledge of Allegiance, as well?

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god is in the declaration of independence and the constitution.

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Correction, Natures God is in the declaration of independence. Anybody who has done philosophical/theological studies knows that this is clearly a DIEST term; not mention the Declaration is firm example of Jefferson being a Lockien, seeing as it was pretty much a copy of Locke's "Treatise on Government." Come-on, the first draft contained the same words that Locke used, which were "Life, liberty and property."
Simply saying god is in the Constitution shows your complete lack of knowledge on what you are talking about.

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Also, you throw around "separation of church and state" all over the place. Do you people even know that separation of church and state is NOT in the constitution. its in a letter from Jefferson to a baptist pastor telling him that the government will not interfere with his congregation. What it DOES say is"congress shall make no LAW respecting the establishment of a religion".....meaning that you cannot pass legislation that gives money to a certain church or make it required of you to beleive in God. "under God" in the pledge is not a LAW. OUr founding fathers did beleive this is a country under God.

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You forgot to mention Article 6; section 2, which states “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” Combine this with the establishment clause and the Christian Right is basically shooting blanks. Furthermore you would have to ignore a tremendous amount history to say the phrase “separation of church state” has no meaning. It has been used tremendously over the life of this country by political figures, justices, etc. While it might not say it EXACTLY the phrase is simply putting the establishment clause in other words. I guess it’s hard for some people to recognize that you can use different words to convey the same general meaning.


Here's what a basically interpret this whole debate to. What this debate is fundamentally about is the Christian Fundamentalist inability to distinguish the founding fathers personal convictions from there conviction how the government should be run. This isn’t entirely surprising if you look critically at the nature of fundamentalism, but that’s a whole other topic to begin with.
Most educated people know that the Founding Father were mostly proponents of traditional liberalism which was based on ideas of self rule, limited government etc. This is one of the key principal that should be into account when looking at whether this is a “Christian nation.” The simple fact is all of the Founding Father were largely against state sanctioned religion in any form. The firmly believed this because of examples in England and they firmly believed in the ideals traditional liberalism. In other words, they believed that, contrary to what the Christian Right tries to imply, a society that must enforce morality is “morally bankrupt.” While we can sit here and throw out various quotes that support our case the simple fact is it is extremely easy to derive whether the founding fathers wanted religion to play a fundamental role government. I would much prefer to look to the founding fathers implementation of our government system rather then looking at various quotes because actions are a much better representation. The simple fact is there is not one mentioning of God, Jesus, Scripture, or any specific religion. There are only two references in the original Constitution that deal with religion and they are exclusionary, the first is the establishment clause. The second reference is in article 6; section 2, which states “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” I’m sorry but when you apply this with all the other evidence it’s EXTREMELY clear the founding fathers did not want government and religion to mix; they did this to protect both.
Now it is often said that the adding of God to the pledge was intended to pay homage to founding fathers supposed faith. While if you look up I disprove this sentiment you must also really think do they really want it? Furthermore should we also be paying homage to their owning of slaves? Simply looking at a quote by Jefferson shows they don't want this homage because it slows the progression of society.
"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the Covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment... laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind... as that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, institutions must advance also, to keep pace with the times.... We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain forever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
Thomas Jefferson (on reform of the Virginia Constitution)

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OUr founding fathers did beleive this is a country under God.

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May I have some evidence, please?

I do know that it mentions 'Creator' in the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence, but I'm too lazy to think outside of that.

You people are taking the quotes of these people all out of context. God is in the declaration of independence and the constitution, theres nothing wrong with it being in the pledge. Also, you throw around "separation of church and state" all over the place. Do you people even know that separation of church and state is NOT in the constitution. its in a letter from Jefferson to a baptist pastor telling him that the government will not interfere with his congregation. What it DOES say is"congress shall make no LAW respecting the establishment of a religion".....meaning that you cannot pass legislation that gives money to a certain church or make it required of you to beleive in God. "under God" in the pledge is not a LAW. OUr founding fathers did beleive this is a country under God.

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I don't see why people are so worked up about having two words in the pledge that they don't approve of. I mean, there are much more important topics to worry about besides that, terrorism, world hunger, the global warming...two words in the pledge aren't gonna change us a whole lot.

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Isn't. And this topic may be important to some eople. No need to devalue it's weight. Religion is a big deal for some people.

I don't see why people are so worked up about having two words in the pledge that they don't approve of. I mean, there are much more important topics to worry about besides that, terrorism, world hunger, the global warming...two words in the pledge aren't gonna change us a whole lot.

I, for one, am STRONGLY against having "under God" in the pledge. I myself am agnostic, but regardless of my own religion, I believe it violates separation of church and state. I'm not so thrilled about the mentions of God on money, either. Personally, when I hear or see it, it doesn't bother me, but I think that official references to God should be removed.

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God's name out of the pledge is going against the beliefs of the men who helped to put this country together

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No, not really.

Again:

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Jefferson-
"It has been fifty and sixty years since I have read the apocalypes, and I then considered it merely the ravings of a lunatic."
"The preists of different sects...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger anouncing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live."
ext...
James Madison-
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect"
"The purpose of the seperation of church and state is to keep forever from there shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
John Adams-
"There is in the clergey of all christian demominations a time-serving, cringing, sub-servient morality, as wide from the spirit of the gospel as it is from the intrepid assertation and vindication of the truth."
George Washington-
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds that those which spring from any other cause."
Ethan Allen-
"There is not any thing, which has contributed so much to delude mankind in religious matters, as mistaken apprehension concerning insperation or revelation."
"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles have ceased; but in those parts of it as are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue."
Thomas Paine-
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
"Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man"
"One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests."
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
John Adams-
"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstision and dogmatism cannot confine it."
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Benjamin Franklin-
"When I traveled to Flanders...in the afternoon, on a Sunday, both high and low went to the play and to the opera, where there is plenty of singing and dancing. I looked around for god's judgements, but saw no signs of them."
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

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RoxyGirl, I forgot to ask this as well: Why isn't the reason the pledge was edited in the 50s out of fear an important point?

This is also one nation under poverty, disease, and violence: aspects of life equated with God. Does this mean we should therefore affix that into our Pledge of Allegiance, as well?

Why does it make sense?

You do know that the 'Under God' part was added in the 1950's out of fear of the spread of communism, right?



i dont think that is even an important point. Its the fact that keeping his name in the pledge makes sense

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Taking God's name out of the pledge is going against the beliefs of the men who helped to put this country together.

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You do know that the 'Under God' part was added in the 1950's out of fear of the spread of communism, right?

I think that it's right for the pledge to stay the same. Our country was built upon the beliefs that God is ruler and there shall be no kings to tell us what to do. Taking God's name out of the pledge is going against the beliefs of the men who helped to put this country together. Think about it...God is up in Heaven..Heaven is above the nation which makes the statment true; we ARE a nation under God.

Some good quotes:

Jefferson-
"It has been fifty and sixty years since I have read the apocalypes, and I then considered it merely the ravings of a lunatic."
"The preists of different sects...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger anouncing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live."
ext...
James Madison-
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect"
"The purpose of the seperation of church and state is to keep forever from there shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
John Adams-
"There is in the clergey of all christian demominations a time-serving, cringing, sub-servient morality, as wide from the spirit of the gospel as it is from the intrepid assertation and vindication of the truth."
George Washington-
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds that those which spring from any other cause."
Ethan Allen-
"There is not any thing, which has contributed so much to delude mankind in religious matters, as mistaken apprehension concerning insperation or revelation."
"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles have ceased; but in those parts of it as are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue."
Thomas Paine-
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
"Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man"
"One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests."
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
John Adams-
"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstision and dogmatism cannot confine it."
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Benjamin Franklin-
"When I traveled to Flanders...in the afternoon, on a Sunday, both high and low went to the play and to the opera, where there is plenty of singing and dancing. I looked around for god's judgements, but saw no signs of them."
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

ext...