I publish a Messianic blog called JewHampshire.com and there, I take this modern-day Christianity to task.

They are nothing more than an instrument of Rome.


It's true.


This world has a horrible example of who Jesus was, is and taught. Messianic is just another form of the Hebrew word for following the Messiah. Christian is the Greek/English form, but the definitions are entirely different.


Jesus wasn't just about "love." He was about obeying, and more importantly, obeying his commandments.

quote:

yes but that does make one wonder of the validicy of some of ur posts you have no stable thresh hold to fall back on and u just keep changing ur mind and story.

I really don't think that this is the case, or at least that you're not picking up the subtle distinctions that I'm trying to make here. I know what I believe. My positions are consistent, as are my theories (at least by and large). However, this is a debating site where I attempt to expand my argumentative skills, and thus I don't just stick to my own opinions. I have my own opinions; I change neither my mind nor my story, except when I'm presented with a reason sufficient to that end. Part of the problem that this approach saddles you with is that you have to defend yourself from a large variety of positions, each of which reveals some of the weaknesses of yours, which I imagine must be frustrating, but seems to signify the overall weakness of that same position.

quote:

Satan isnt exactly suffering but his reward is that he hurst god every time he manages to turn one of us away from god.

I don't find this very convincing. It seems to me that an omnipotent, omniscient being would be able to defend itself from such pain, if indeed it is even capable of experiencing such a phenomenon.

quote:

i do know that gay marrage is wrong accordingly to the bible. i believe that its in genesis

Actually it's in Leviticus, and as any scholar of higher criticism would tell you, that was written to codify the societal laws of a people living in a very restricted and arcane society. Rules in Leviticus are generally not followed - if you cite such passages as forbidding gay marriage then I believe you also have to discard any clothes that are made of more than one type of fabric, never shave and abandon eating seafood.

And this is just my point - Christians that are conservative, as I think we've now established that its appropriate to call you, tend to see these things in the Bible and then say "This is wrong, this is where it says so in the Bible". Whereas, Christians who are more liberal would be more inclined to say that certain portions of the Bible are not only metaphorical, but are in fact wrong for this day and age, such as that passage in Leviticus.

quote:

my parents just instill these ideas on me

So basically, they indoctrine them into you.

So let's say you were born to a Muslim family? Do you think you would still be a Christian?

quote:

Satan, according to tradition at least, was an angel and therefore definitively not a beast of the field.

how so hes a fallen angel by this point. he also referred to some kind of beast in various texts throughout the bible.

quote:

I know what I believe. I want to know what you believe."

u may want to know what others believe but ull never truly understand or know what they believe

quote:

My positions are not consistent because this allows me to engage in the debate a bit more

yes but that does make one wonder of the validicy of some of ur posts you have no stable thresh hold to fall back on and u just keep changing ur mind and story.

quote:

And what actual reward does it bring Satan? He has more souls, but since they are only tormented as he is he actually gains nothing by it. Look at Dante's Inferno - I think it would be illuminating. Also, an incredibly good book.

Satan isnt exactly suffering but his reward is that he hurst god every time he manages to turn one of us away from god.

quote:

I can also predict that you are against pre-marital sex (in theory if not in practise), against gay marriage and homosexuality in general, and also against elective abortions. Any of those right at all?

im not actually sure if some of them are right my parents just instill these ideas on me i do know that gay marrage is wrong accordingly to the bible. i believe that its in genesis

quote:

the first thing tht tells me this is tht u say he wasnt in eden if he wasnt in eden then who persuaded eve to eat the forbidden fruit?

Genesis 3:1

quote:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

It quite clearly states here that the 'serpent', who was a 'beast of the field' was the one who tempted Eve (or just 'the woman' at this point in the narrative). Satan, according to tradition at least, was an angel and therefore definitively not a beast of the field.

quote:

Secondly ive never heard of people referring to Micheal the angel as St.Micheal before unless they were catholic.

Daniel 10:13, Jude 1:9 and Revelation 12:7 - Michael's actually in there quite a lot you know. Of course, the revelations passage is gibberish, but there you are.

quote:

Also ur posts about job contractdict with ur theory about him not interferring in the lives of man.

That's because I don't believe that god exists. As the great Gregory House (whom I quote on every possible occasion) says, "I know what I believe. I want to know what you believe." My positions are not consistent because this allows me to engage in the debate a bit more (and, if I was Wolfie, I'd point out some of its inherent contradictions and so on).

quote:

Thirdly Satan has all to gain since there are people like you for example tht blame god for their misfortunes such as a family member dieing or other traumatic events a person might face.

Again, I think you are suffering a misaphrension. You see, I cannot blame god for anything, because I do not believe that he exists. If I did blame god, I would have to believe that he exists, which I don't. Also, my life has thus far been untouched by traumatic events (touch wood) but that doesn't mean that I can't see unbelieveable suffering and think, because of this god probably doesn't exist.

And what actual reward does it bring Satan? He has more souls, but since they are only tormented as he is he actually gains nothing by it. Look at Dante's Inferno - I think it would be illuminating. Also, an incredibly good book.

quote:

Almost everytime something bad happens to us humans we find someone to blame and in most cases its god.

That is because god is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on earth. For example, he is responsible for snake bites because he created snakes. If he hadn't created snakes, there would be no suffering in the form of a snake bite. In the same way that Oppenheimer's mangled quotation from the Bhagavad Gita proclaims his own culpibility in whatever happens due to his development of nuclear technology - 'I am become death, destroyer of worlds'.

And please, before any more talk about Satan, would everyone please go and read the book 'The Origins of Satan' by Elaine Pagels. Otherwise there can be no progress at all.

quote:

What r u on? if we were frozen like tht for eternity tht would defeate the purpose of heaven plus the bible tells us tht we'll never go hungry or thirsty again if we were frozen how would this be possible. and please be rational and not feed me tht god will make it to were tht wont matter and ull remain in tht frozen state for eternity crap.

Again, I'm afraid that you are willfully operating under a misunderstanding. By 'frozen' I didn't mean covered in ice; I meant frozen in the way that a computer is frozen, frozen in the sense that seized assets are frozen. In essence, I mean that things will cease to change, which is only what you yourself have said numerous times. Besides, if you were frozen in the sense that you seem to be thinking of it, then neither hunger nor thirst would be a problem - you'd be frozen!

What I have written here are the exact ramifications of the afterlife as you described it. ' There can't be any years since all time will cease to exsist after the apocalypse' and 'we cant change after we die'. If time stops, then character cannot change, viz Revelations 22: 'He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still'. If time does not exist, then the funadmental expressions of our humanity (which are, after all, physical things) will be impossible. Everything will be impossible - afterall, without time, matter might as well be nothing.

quote:

I beg to differ i believe im more of a conservative/liberal christian and i was aware tht u werent using the political terms .

Those almost diametrically opposing types of Christianity. The Chrisianity you practise, which demands that you'll go to hell unless you specifically confess to Christ, your position on Biblical infallibility and a variety of other telling mentions throughout your posts here tell me that you are classed as a fundamentality Christian. Based on this assumption, I can also predict that you are against pre-marital sex (in theory if not in practise), against gay marriage and homosexuality in general, and also against elective abortions. Any of those right at all?

quote:

Not according to Calvin or any of those who argue that the only thing which is capable of redeeming humanity from sin is grace, who completely disagree with you.

im srry ive lost my train of thought its been so long. this passage ive quoted doesnt seem to fit with what u qouted urself.
And this calvin fellow seems to hve a misguided veiw on top of Grace which im assuming is the word of god either/or baptism you have to work out god's commandments.

quote:

Well, who knows. If god isn't all good, then he's presumably hurting life on earth because it's amusing. Or if he is, then using your own arguments, he gets converts and a quick if not necessarily accurate method of distinguishing between those who love him and those who don't.

Satan has nothing to gain from human suffering. Biblically speaking, he is trapped in hell where his free will is completely restricted, having been cast there by St Michael, the head of the heavenly host. Satan is not in the garden of Eden, Satan is not an agent upon the earth. Any Christianity that suggests that he has any ability to influence things on earth is not biblically based, but based on the shadow of Zoroastrianism that hung over early Christianity.

Besides, if Satan was able to convince people to give up god, god would presumably still have to let them off, because they were persuaded by someone who has enough power to continually defy the will of an omnipotent being, making him exceptionally powerful to a degree that biblically based Christianity cannot tolerate.

I wouldnt say he is restrictd as much as u think. the first thing tht tells me this is tht u say he wasnt in eden if he wasnt in eden then who persuaded eve to eat the forbidden fruit? Secondly ive never heard of people referring to Micheal the angel as St.Micheal before unless they were catholic. Also ur posts about job contractdict with ur theory about him not interferring in the lives of man. Thirdly Satan has all to gain since there are people like you for example tht blame god for their misfortunes such as a family member dieing or other traumatic events a person might face. Almost everytime something bad happens to us humans we find someone to blame and in most cases its god. And if Satan can manage to get us as christians to turn on god as well tht is a victory for him. Lastly god would not have to let them off they still hve the choice to choose between the two. Even Jesus was tempted by Satan 3 times and jesus denied him everytime.

quote:

Yes it does - if he created them to do this on a daily basis, and he's not a completely awful universe designer, then he has to be constantly and purposefully causing intense human suffering to a degree that I, and a large number of people on this forum will be unable to understand.

im prbly never going to convice u of this but at least u admit tht u will nvr be able to understand true suffering.

quote:

Yes, but you said that time will cease. I wasn't referring to changes in physical appearance, but to changes in human character etc. If time ceases to exist, then there cannot be any changes of any kind. This means that when you die, your soul will become frozen as it is, without improvement or degeneration or indeed change of any kind. Faced between a timeless afterlife in which nothing can change and non-existence, I think the rational choice is to hope that non-existence is the result of my death.

What r u on? if we were frozen like tht for eternity tht would defeate the purpose of heaven plus the bible tells us tht we'll never go hungry or thirsty again if we were frozen how would this be possible. and please be rational and not feed me tht god will make it to were tht wont matter and ull remain in tht frozen state for eternity crap.

quote:

A single baptism cannot be sufficient. Via Jesus' own teachings, everyone sins. Even if I am baptised, unless I die at that very instance (say, by drowning in holy water) I will commit a sin, which, since there is no way to grade sin in fundamentalist Christianity, will cause me to go to hell. Even if I have some tendencies to repent, some part of me will resist repenting, insisting that what ever sin I committed was justified. I am willing to hazard that this might be a near universal phenomenon. If I don't wholly repent, I cannot go to heaven, and since I (and the vast majority of humanity's) ability to repent to this degree, entry to heaven is impossible for virtually everyone.

Its not impossible but it will more than likely never happen but all i can do is try to help u since i cant talk to every single perosn in the world.Of course you commit sin after ur baptised thts given but u can try to do less of it try to do the least amount possible for you. No living person is perfect except jesus. your gonna sin and god understands this but the less u hve the better chance youll hve.

I beg to differ i believe im more of a conservative/liberal christian and i was aware tht u werent using the political terms .

quote:

Y not the bible makes several references about us being grind stones. actually we are talking about hard work it takes very hard work, dedication, and numerous labor hours.

Not according to Calvin or any of those who argue that the only thing which is capable of redeeming humanity from sin is grace, who completely disagree with you.

quote:

what is god getting from torturing us then?

Well, who knows. If god isn't all good, then he's presumably hurting life on earth because it's amusing. Or if he is, then using your own arguments, he gets converts and a quick if not necessarily accurate method of distinguishing between those who love him and those who don't.

Satan has nothing to gain from human suffering. Biblically speaking, he is trapped in hell where his free will is completely restricted, having been cast there by St Michael, the head of the heavenly host. Satan is not in the garden of Eden, Satan is not an agent upon the earth. Any Christianity that suggests that he has any ability to influence things on earth is not biblically based, but based on the shadow of Zoroastrianism that hung over early Christianity.

Besides, if Satan was able to convince people to give up god, god would presumably still have to let them off, because they were persuaded by someone who has enough power to continually defy the will of an omnipotent being, making him exceptionally powerful to a degree that biblically based Christianity cannot tolerate.

quote:

yes god created nature to do these things but it doesnt mean he's purposely doing this on a daily basis.

Yes it does - if he created them to do this on a daily basis, and he's not a completely awful universe designer, then he has to be constantly and purposefully causing intense human suffering to a degree that I, and a large number of people on this forum will be unable to understand.

quote:

Where are you getting at of course heaven will flourish but to grow and change appearance would mean that time still exsists and would you rather stay one age or age into old decreptit fossils tht will age forever since we cant die a third time.

Yes, but you said that time will cease. I wasn't referring to changes in physical appearance, but to changes in human character etc. If time ceases to exist, then there cannot be any changes of any kind. This means that when you die, your soul will become frozen as it is, without improvement or degeneration or indeed change of any kind. Faced between a timeless afterlife in which nothing can change and non-existence, I think the rational choice is to hope that non-existence is the result of my death.

quote:

Dude if uve never been baptised its still not too late for you to change.

A single baptism cannot be sufficient. Via Jesus' own teachings, everyone sins. Even if I am baptised, unless I die at that very instance (say, by drowning in holy water) I will commit a sin, which, since there is no way to grade sin in fundamentalist Christianity, will cause me to go to hell. Even if I have some tendencies to repent, some part of me will resist repenting, insisting that what ever sin I committed was justified. I am willing to hazard that this might be a near universal phenomenon. If I don't wholly repent, I cannot go to heaven, and since I (and the vast majority of humanity's) ability to repent to this degree, entry to heaven is impossible for virtually everyone.

quote:

lol wow you have no idea heck i dont have the foggiest if im conservative liberal or anything else.

No, but your stated beliefs place you in certain groups - and I was referring to the religious and not the political spectrum. Since you believe that the bible is the infallible word of god, you are a fundamentalist Christian. Risika acknowledges a number of issues whilst retaining Christian belief, which places her in the much more intellectual bracket of liberal Christianity, the essence of which is that god wants us to use our reason to understand god and the universe to the best of our ability, even if this means questioning what the bible says and so on.

Romashu- do you and others like you believe that heaven is the supreme place of happiness? Do you and other christians think that a person is at their happiest when in heaven?

quote:

why not rebuild earth u ask? y not make it easier for u all u say? surely brehon u appriciate the hard work people put in to everything they do. Y should getting to heaven be any different?


I think that 'people should work hard for their rewards' is a bit of a twisted argument when it comes to the massive earthly suffering hidden behind the euphemism of 'hard work'. And besides, we're not talking about hard work - it's not a case of knuckling down, noses to the grindstone; we're talking about forking over your freewill to god, which may not even be enough or do any good at all(Calvin, for example, thought that good works are completely irrelevant to salvation).

Y not the bible makes several references about us being grind stones. actually we are talking about hard work it takes very hard work, dedication, and numerous labor hours.

quote:

1. Christ was sent here to relieve us of our sin/troubles.


I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of this to my argument. I presume that this is supposed to rebut my point about Christ being a moral exemplar? Does this mean that you only see Christ as redeemer, and not as being a moral example? That sounds like it could be quite a blow to any Biblically based Christian belief...

no he is a moral example but im saying hes much more than tht.

quote:

quote:
2. How r natural disasters only torture if God exsists? Or is this just some form of justification for ur anti-christians/religion outlook/ideals?


It's really quite simple; torture is a process of harming someone for a purpose, which is normally to get information or agreement from the torturee. Natural disasters can only be torture if there is someone behind them, using them to a purpose - which you've already argued god is doing to perfect humanity in some way. To the atheist, these events are tragedies, and certainly the among the most harrowing events that can ever happen to people; but they cannot be torture, because there is no purpose behind them. They can be torturous, but not torture.

what is god getting from torturing us then?
from my point of view satan has the most to gain from these "Acts of Torture" seeing as people will, would, or do blame god for this. Your not sounding like yourself in this post whats going on?

quote:

quote:
3. But it answers Wolfies Q. of Y i brush it off as nothing.


Although, given my point above, this rebuttal is no longer enough, because both hell and natural disasters are forms of torture. Which still leaves the accusation of injustice pointing squarely at god.

yes god created nature to do these things but it doesnt mean he's purposely doing this on a daily basis. From the image your trying to convey to me id say this is how you view god:

Here you see god standing over a cloud bank looking over down towards earth stroking his long pointy black beard and thinking.

GOD: MWAAAHAAAHAA now lets see what poor innocent sap can I torture today? Oh i know lets give Italy an earthquake, India a tsunami or two, and who gets the volcanic eruption hmmm.

or the famous family guy impersonation.

quote:

Meg: God just soot me now, Next you see a laser target on megs head. then it cuts to god with a sniper rifle. Phone rings god picks up.
GOD: Hello, Hey Karen hehehe

quote:

4. a. There can't be any years since all time will cease to exsist after the apocalypse.


I'm sure I remember reading something different in the Bible - isn't there a kingdom that will last for a thousand years once New Jerusalem has descended to earth? I'm sure there's something like that in there.

? What bible are u reading?

quote:

Then you aren't going to an afterlife, or at least not one that can be meaningful in anyway. An eternity of stasis, where you cannot grow, flourish or change in anyway? I don't envy you. I think non-existence positively paradisical in comparison.

Where are you getting at of course heaven will flourish but to grow and change appearance would mean that time still exsists and would you rather stay one age or age into old decreptit fossils tht will age forever since we cant die a third time. Dude seriously ur scaring me ur starting to sound like wolfie.

quote:

I have the possibility, yes. But if I am damned, which, since I have committed numerous sins, I am, then when I die, I will be sent to hell. I suspect there are very few things that god would take as repentance by this stage of my existence. In fact, true repentance is so rare that I suspect that the vast majority of Christians do not achieve it, and since they can't repent once dead, presumably will also go to hell.

Dude if uve never been baptised its still not too late for you to change. Where's the intelect the british wit this really doesnt sound like you.

quote:

Because god's word is interpretable - metaphorical, shifting. I.e. she's more a more liberal Christian than you are, which may mean that the also indulges in such exciting and deviant practises as hermeneutics, Biblical and historical criticism and general Biblical scholarship.

lol wow you have no idea heck i dont have the foggiest if im conservative liberal or anything else.

Oh btw starting tommorrow ill be gone for a week dont worry ull have someone to debate with by next sat.

i do not consider jesus the son of god. he was a part a politcal movement and he stood for love and peace.

i hope i go to hell.

why would i want to be in heaven with all the boring, lame christians?

hail satan.

quote:

why not rebuild earth u ask? y not make it easier for u all u say? surely brehon u appriciate the hard work people put in to everything they do. Y should getting to heaven be any different?

I think that 'people should work hard for their rewards' is a bit of a twisted argument when it comes to the massive earthly suffering hidden behind the euphemism of 'hard work'. And besides, we're not talking about hard work - it's not a case of knuckling down, noses to the grindstone; we're talking about forking over your freewill to god, which may not even be enough or do any good at all(Calvin, for example, thought that good works are completely irrelevant to salvation).

quote:

1. Christ was sent here to relieve us of our sin/troubles.

I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of this to my argument. I presume that this is supposed to rebut my point about Christ being a moral exemplar? Does this mean that you only see Christ as redeemer, and not as being a moral example? That sounds like it could be quite a blow to any Biblically based Christian belief...

quote:

2. How r natural disasters only torture if God exsists? Or is this just some form of justification for ur anti-christians/religion outlook/ideals?

It's really quite simple; torture is a process of harming someone for a purpose, which is normally to get information or agreement from the torturee. Natural disasters can only be torture if there is someone behind them, using them to a purpose - which you've already argued god is doing to perfect humanity in some way. To the atheist, these events are tragedies, and certainly the among the most harrowing events that can ever happen to people; but they cannot be torture, because there is no purpose behind them. They can be torturous, but not torture.

quote:

3. But it answers Wolfies Q. of Y i brush it off as nothing.

Although, given my point above, this rebuttal is no longer enough, because both hell and natural disasters are forms of torture. Which still leaves the accusation of injustice pointing squarely at god.

quote:

4. a. There can't be any years since all time will cease to exsist after the apocalypse.

I'm sure I remember reading something different in the Bible - isn't there a kingdom that will last for a thousand years once New Jerusalem has descended to earth? I'm sure there's something like that in there.

quote:

b. The thing about God nvr giving us more thn we could handle ends the day we die since we cant change after we die.

Then you aren't going to an afterlife, or at least not one that can be meaningful in anyway. An eternity of stasis, where you cannot grow, flourish or change in anyway? I don't envy you. I think non-existence positively paradisical in comparison.

quote:

c. Wouldnt it b relavent for u since u hve the possibility of being relentlessly tortured forever?

I have the possibility, yes. But if I am damned, which, since I have committed numerous sins, I am, then when I die, I will be sent to hell. I suspect there are very few things that god would take as repentance by this stage of my existence. In fact, true repentance is so rare that I suspect that the vast majority of Christians do not achieve it, and since they can't repent once dead, presumably will also go to hell.

quote:

For example, do you know for a fact, Joey, that God was about obeying?

Just a quick point, Risika, but Joey hasn't been back here for ages. And I think his point is that what Jesus demands of people is obedience (trusting that the demands set down in the Bible are accurate), and that as a Jew, he finds this repugnant. The site seems to be down at the moment, but I'm sure that was the point behind it when I last looked.

quote:

If you question this & gods wordd like this how can u call urself a christian?

Because god's word is interpretable - metaphorical, shifting. I.e. she's more a more liberal Christian than you are, which may mean that the also indulges in such exciting and deviant practises as hermeneutics, Biblical and historical criticism and general Biblical scholarship.

By the by, a good scholar, who writes well, as well as having vaguely interesting theology on this sort of point, is John Hick. His books are quite illuminating.

Brehon:

1. Christ was sent here to relieve us of our sin/troubles.

2. How r natural disasters only torture if God exsists? Or is this just some form of justification for ur anti-christians/religion outlook/ideals?

3. But it answers Wolfies Q. of Y i brush it off as nothing.

4. a. There can't be any years since all time will cease to exsist after the apocalypse.

b. The thing about God nvr giving us more thn we could handle ends the day we die since we cant change after we die.

c. Wouldnt it b relavent for u since u hve the possibility of being relentlessly tortured forever?

Riska2004:

1. The Bible is our link to the truth as any christian teen should know by now.

2. The Old Testiment tells us God's plans for christianity & foreshadows his plans for jesus & the church. Again in John he tells us of plans 4 us & what we should do specifically John 16:21-33. Acts is the creation of the church & tells us about a few of his plans & what his messangers had to go through. & Finally Revelations tells us about Gods future plans for us and the church.

4. Apparently someone was there: Adam & Eve, Abraham, Noah, Moses, John the baptist, Jesus & the apostiles, etc.

If you question this & gods wordd like this how can u call urself a christian?

why not rebuild earth u ask? y not make it easier for u all u say? surely brehon u appriciate the hard work people put in to everything they do. Y should getting to heaven be any different?

I nvr lookd into Marx tht much we just went over him for like 5 mins in class. I meant every dictator after him & i know tht his ideals were taken out of proportion. But he is still considerd the father of communism & in the top 15 people of the millenium as polld & defined by the history channel & several historians globally.

i really cant argue with anything else uve said up to this point in ur post. like the religious criminology part, but id like to add tht out of most christian religions mine if i had to put it in percent the crime rate would hve to be lower than 10%.

I don't think it's really anyone's place to assume what God did, does and might do. No one knows for a fact that God was who we all think he was. I don't exactly see any eyewitnesses who can back up the Bible. Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in God, but I also don't think we have the right to assume that we know in detail his actions and beliefs. No one has the right to really say that they "know" what he was about. For example, do you know for a fact, Joey, that God was about obeying? Were YOU around God when he was supposedly in reign? No, you weren't. No one was. No one should assume that they know anything about God.

see this is what i mean. i was talking about hell two posts ago. and you somehow think my next to most recent post is about natural disasters. wtf. do you read?

i just said 'god dooms people to eternal suffering and torment' ie hell. he sends gays to hell, he sends the unbaptized to hell and you think you're god is all loving.

no he is full of hate. if there was a being that loved people and was truly a merciful god he would not send people to hell to be eternally tormented.

that is why your god is false and a liar. he acts as though he is benevolent but really he is for satan. why else would he have that nice little setup with him?

quote:

I ment try to put urself in their shoes if you cant understand or comprehend this as i understand that you have no concept of an afterlife.

That's exactly my point: from a disinterested perspective, my odds are exactly fifty fifty of being right. To one who doesn't accept Christianity as read, which is the logical thing to do in this situation, then there is no way to choose between the possibilities of Islam and Christianity - the chances are equally good that whichever one I pick will be wrong and condemn me to a life in a torture pit, or elevate me to an eternity of bliss. There is no way to decide which option is preferable except to die and test out one hypothesis. Unfortunate lose-lose situation, really.

quote:

I keep forgetting that ur not american the police cant do anything so drastic without a supreme court ruling and even then it would still upset the public and cause riots since the people being hunted because of their religion's rights are being denied. by this im referring to the freedom of religion.

I'm not entirely sure that you've got my point. My point was, that if there is a certain correlation between 'false religions' and committing crimes (as in, nearly all the crimes in the US are committed by people from false religions) then religious rights be screwed. Let's say all criminals were Fictionovah worshippers, and in order to become a criminal you had to become a Fictionovah worshipper, then there is no way that Fictionovahism would be permitted under the freedom of religion. Besides, if all criminals were Fictionovahns, then the general Christian population could have no problem with locking them all up. After all, they are all criminals. But as you haven't locked up every member of other faiths, then you have to conclude that there isn't a staggering correlation between religious affiliation and crime, which means that people of 'false religions' are only as likely to commit crime as Christians.

And now I'm finally going to quote a source, which I was surprising gleeful to find. Quotation taken from "Atheists: A Psychological Profile", an article by Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi in "The Cambridge Companion to Atheism":

quote:

The claim that atheists are somehow likely to be immoral or dishonest
has long been disproven by systematic studies. In studies that looked
at readiness to help or honesty, it was atheists that distinguished themselves,
not the religious. Early in the twentieth century, a survey of
2,000 associates of the YMCA found that those identifying themselves
as atheists or agnostics were more willing to help the poor than those
who called themselves religious (Ross 1950).
When it comes to the more serious matter of violence and crime,
ever since the field of criminology got started and data were collected of
the religious affiliation of criminal offenders, the fact that the unaffiliated
and the nonreligious had the lowest crime rates has been noted
(Lombroso 1911; Bonger 1943; von Hentig 1948). According to von
Hentig, being unaffiliated is the best predictor of law-abiding behavior.
There is no reason to doubt the validity of this generalization today.

How exciting. It seems non-religious people are more interested in charity and solving human problems, because once you discount god swooping in to solve the problem, you actually have to solve it yourself.

quote:

others take the power they need since the nice karl marx came up with communism people have risen to power to become dictators and take this freedom away.

Just a few problems with this:
1) there were dictators before Karl Marx.
2) Karl Marx's ideal of Communism doesn't include dictators; it is a statement of actual equality. It should, if Marx's vision were followed, promote equality for all even more so than democracy.
3) Marx's communism was formulated as the next logical step in the progress from feudal inequality to total equality, and he according to Das Kapital, the ideal communist country at roundabout the end of the 19th century was Britain, then the leading democratic superpower. So now the next really progressive country (progress that leads necessarily to communism) should be the US. How exciting.

quote:

I know why because God isn't real. He's like santa.

Except more like Santa in Futurama, where he kills everyone rather than bringing presents.

Leela: Look Fry, we're under the mistletoe.
Santa: Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW-missile.

I do love Futurama, an excellent programme to be recommended to all and sundry.

Professor: AAAAAHHHHH! Buddha, Zeus, God, one of you guys do something! AAAAAAHHHH! SATAN, YOU OWE ME!

Great stuff.

quote:

god would do tht everytime someone is about to die then it would look as if he was favoring those people while someone else was dieing off somewhere else. it wouldnt be very fair to anyone if he stepped in and saved some of the people dieing this way he doesnt discriminate and we dont all live forever here on this pathetic rock.

Why bother with going to Heaven? Why not simply turn earth into heaven and let us all live forever right now? Save a lot of work battling entropy, and it would put an end to all these questions posed by troubling atheists.

In fact, I've just remembered another excellent comedy quotation that's just about relevant enough for me to include it:

quote:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, and so therefore, you don't. Q.E.D.."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Another book to be recommend to all and sundry.

quote:

f we seek out other people's problems & bear them with our own then weve bitten off more then we chew if we continually seek out others troubles.

But the fundamental paradigm set up by Christ is to take on other's problems as your own. How can you try to be like Christ, and advocate him as a moral exemplar (if Christian, then the heighest moral exemplar - remember, I don't think he was really a good exemplar at all) if you deny this basic aspect of his morality?

quote:

its torture if ur referring to hell uve been refering to natural disaters and random pain & death as torture.

If god exists, then natural disasters are a form of torture. Just as hell is a form of torture. Not very impressive credentials for an all-loving god.

quote:

Of course i take all this earthly pain and anguish or as u refer to it as "torture" off as nothing hell is unimaginable pain & anguish. As well as true torture.

This doesn't answer the question of why an omnipotent and all loving god does this to people. In fact, it begs that question.

quote:

2. If i do right now i wont hve 2 wrry about anything for the rest of eternity.

This begs the question of whether or not god's punishment is fair. It certainly doesn't look fair. It looks like you suffer for about a maximum of an hundred and thirty years, and Wolfie and I suffer (in unimaginable torment, as you've already pointed out) for an infinite number of years minus the maximum hundred and thirty we might have being actually alive. Doesn't sound all that proportional. Nor does it sound like 'God would never give us more than what he knows we can handle' is entirely accurate. I almost certainly couldn't handle unimaginable torment for eternity. But then, since there can't be anything after eternity, I suppose what state I'm in then is hardly relevant, is it?

its torture if ur referring to hell uve been refering to natural disaters and random pain & death as torture. & 2 things

1. Of course i take all this earthly pain and anguish or as u refer to it as "torture" off as nothing hell is unimaginable pain & anguish. As well as true torture.

2. If i do right now i wont hve 2 wrry about anything for the rest of eternity.

God would never give us more than what he knows we can handle.

it says in the bible that god dooms people to eternal suffering and torment. and you are trying to play it off like its not really 'torture.'

why do you think people are 'god-fearing'

tht was posted after this. read the dates.

no one deserves torture but then again tht def. of torture varies among each individual. u obviously hve a wide view by this i mean any little bad thing tht happens to a person.

Ive always been told tht god nvr gives us more than we can handle. (this might answer brehon) If we seek out other people's problems & bear them with our own then weve bitten off more then we chew if we continually seek out others troubles.

i thought you just said in another post that god gives people a reason to suffer because everything happens according to his 'plan'.

now you say he just lets shit happen.

so you think its fine for people to be tortured. forever. in hell.

can't you see the evil of it?