Atheism is a belief that there is no God. To say that there is no God is a absolute statement.For example, if i were to say that there is no gold in China,that would be a absolute statement,in order for me to know that there is no gold in China, then i would have to know everything about china, I would have to know what is in every mountain,jewelry box,and every tooth. In order for this absolute statement to be an absolute truth I would have to absolutely know that there is no gold in China. To say that there is no God I would have to know absolutely everything in the universe. Einstein said that no human has more than one-millionth of a percent of the knowledge in the universe So Mr. Athiest, if you are a super genius and you have one percent of all the knowledge in the universe do you not think that the nintey-nine percent of knowledge left that there could be enough evidence to proove that God exists?

I came to say I didn't care if apathy was a bad thing, but I think that comment would be very outdated (and a little too punny) for this thread.

Whoa!! You leave the room for a couple of days, and look out. Okay first things first. CS you said, "A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Adolf Hitler." That's true a man could not pay for your crimes against God or anyone elses for that matter. Only someone void of any sin. They would have to be pure. Only Jesus Christ fulfills that requirement. And to tell God I'm sorry isn't enough. If Jesus pays your fine, then you go back to your sin you are guilty once again. Then the whole process begins again. This would be the main hang-up among Christians. From alter to pew to alter to pew wearing out both the pastor and the carpet. The Bible clearly states two different parts. It is sin and sins. First our sins are washed away by Christ blood that was shed on the cross. Therfore paying the penalty for sins. This is the part most people are familiar with. The second is sin. Everyone that is born of man has a sin problem. That's not the act of sinning. Its the very thing that dwells in the hearts of man. The ability to sin. Paul wrote that the good he wanted to do he couldn't, but the evil he didn't want to do that is what he done. It is in the very nature of man to sin. Now the question arises, "How to I get rid of my nature to sin?" That is found in the cross. We are crucified with Christ. It is not I who lives it is Christ within me. My hands wants to steal, thats too bad I am dead. Only Christ is alive. My very nature is dead, because I have now giving myself totally to Christ. Watchman Nee said it this way, "The thief's hands are unemployed." I challenge you to read the Book of John, and the Book of Romans. You can go online at www.bible.com, then click on Bible Resources(on left side of page, then go to Read the Bible, then click on the translation (New Living Translation is my favorite), then scroll down to John. I think that what I'm saying would become more clear after reading these two books.

The second thing is this, God did not create sin man did. In the beginning earth was perfect, then man messed it up by disobeying God. There was no sickness, no poverty, no war, no death. All these things entered in when man sinned against his Creator.

The third thing is Satan was not evil to begin with. He was good. Here are some quotes from the book of Ezekiel about Lucifer: “You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty." "Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone—red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone, blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper, blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald—all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created." “You were blameless in all you didfrom the day you were created until the day evil was found in you. Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. Your wisdom was corrupted by your love of splendor. So I threw you to the ground" No, God didn't make Satan evil, he came up with it all on his own. And just as Satan was thrown out because of pride, so will all those who become prideful and exalt themselves above God. You say I have a mind that can think, and God doesn't make sense, but what you should be saying is I have a mind that can think, how wonderful and amazing is my Creator who gave me the abilty to think.

I hope I covered everything. You all be blessed, may God prosper you, and give you peace.

Actually Shade you are right about that. I didn't go about that argument the right way. Clearly, there are only two options. If a person refuses to choose Jesus as their saviour then they are choosing Satan. There are no gray areas or alternative paths. Some people think that it's ridiculous that Christians worship another "man" but really whats so bad about worshiping a creature of love? Especially when you know that He is no creature at all but actually the spirit of the One who made you?

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First of all, God did not originally create Satan as a "bad angel."

Why not? If Satan-el was created to fulfill a purpouse, why not that one? Not to "make a point," but to make a choice.

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You must remember, there was a time before the Bible. Entire civilizations were founded (Like the Aztecs and the Inca) without knowing a single bit of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. They also prospered in to great, civilized nations. (Although behind the times by several hundreds years, which was more due to terrain then anything else). We have seen entire cultures without God, and they have all been considerate, giving, and cooperative. That is the true heart of man.

Yeah but what do all those nations have in common? They have all been destroyed or conquered by other nations. It is amazing how the Jews, after all they have been through, still have the ability to come together 1000s of years later to form Israel with one of the strongest armies in the world. I wonder where they got that from....

We honestly can't fully comprehend God. For one, he is a spirit, not of this world and not of our limitations. For two, He is a strong enough spirit to create an entire world and fill it with 11 million different species of life. So with that, a person can't describe God's intentions down to the very last detail. But with His Word (The Bible), we can at least try and grasp how He feels about us and what He wants us to do. Why is there evil? Possibly because it is the hard times that makes us stronger. Living an "easy" life wont teach you anything. It wont give you any backbone. And I think a major reason why God allows evil is because He wants to test our faith. When the going gets tough, only the Tough get going...everyone else gives up as if nothing is possible. Besides, the devil is supposed to die anyway, and all those who love and appreciate God will live in eternal bliss.

I define Jesus Christ as true love basically because he was willing to die for all men. Whether you believe in His divinity or not, that is what his intentions were. Would you have allowed the Romans and Pharisees to put you on that cross?

How could God have not created Satan as a bad angel?

Who must have created Pride, or at least the capability for Pride, to begin with?

To paraphrase Epicurus,
If your God is able, but not willing to overcome evil, then is he a loving God?
If your gods is willing, but not able, then is he really an all powerful God?
If your God is willing, and able to overcome evil, then why do we suffer so?
And if your God isn't willing, and isn't able, why do we call him God to begin with?

As long as you define Jesus as the only definition of true love, you're always going to be on a "shortage of true love".

You must remember, there was a time before the Bible. Entire civilizations were founded (Like the Aztecs and the Inca) without knowing a single bit of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. They also prospered in to great, civilized nations. (Although behind the times by several hundreds years, which was more due to terrain then anything else). We have seen entire cultures without God, and they have all been considerate, giving, and cooperative. That is the true heart of man.

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More so, according to your own faith, who designed humanity? According to Genesis, it was God.
According to your own faith, who designed the world? The universe? The very foundation that you claim all of this is based on? God. Then who must have created the devil that so fills man with sin? God.
And therefore who, by extension or indirectly, must have created sin? God.

First of all, God did not originally create Satan as a "bad angel." God's intentions are always for the best. It was Satan's pride that turned himself into, well, Satan. Yes God has the power to overcome Satan at any time. However I think it is safe to say that the reason God doesn't just get rid of Satan altogether is because for one, it's a part of God's plan to wait to kill Satan, and two, it's basically like God is trying to prove a point. The point being that without God, men are just wretched, prideful, and barbaric animals living it out for themselves. I understand that not everyone is selfish and inconsiderate but there are plenty enough people like that in the world that if God lifted his hands off people's hearts, they'd tear each other to shreds in only a matter of short time. I'm sure you can agree, this world is just about hopeless. There isn't too many people who know what real love is anymore. Jesus really is the only definition of true love.

And also, usually people who kill millions, aka psychopaths, aren't going to accept Jesus as their savior. I mean yeah they have the chance to but by the time they decide to commit mass murder I am pretty sure they wont change for God.

You did, but the nature of Christ is to work by grace. Note that in the Bible it is said that ultimate Judgment is coming, where El as a whole will be judging (aka: Rev/the end times), including Christ. Also note that time is different for God or those in the spiritual realms. Where they do not have a physical body to manifest or maintain, time will flow differently, a moment focused forever on itself or time passing too fast to see. God is Judge, but this age is Jesus', the non-wrath loving aspect of El, such is his purpouse, and such is God's intent to let him have precedence over the Judgment, as a middle man between the guilty and the Judge. I guess...in a way it could be difficult to understand, but it just takes a little warping of your perspective to see it. Different thinking patterns is all.

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Originally posted by Shade:

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Yet you purpose that your Jesus Christ will forgive anything, so long as you're willing to say, "My bad God. Looks like I shouldn't have killed those millions. I'm a sinner, but I accept you and your son, so we're all good, right?". God therefore must not be just, as he does not punish sin.

Please remember that, as a triple diety, each aspect of the Christian God is different in nature, and while they are part of each other, they act independent of each other. Just something I think has been under explained in this debate.

I believe I accurately separated them in my above sentence, if you're directing it at me.

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Yet you purpose that your Jesus Christ will forgive anything, so long as you're willing to say, "My bad God. Looks like I shouldn't have killed those millions. I'm a sinner, but I accept you and your son, so we're all good, right?". God therefore must not be just, as he does not punish sin.

Please remember that, as a triple diety, each aspect of the Christian God is different in nature, and while they are part of each other, they act independent of each other. Just something I think has been under explained in this debate.

A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Adolf Hitler. A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Stalin. A man could not pay for the crimes committed by Pol Pot, Augusto Pinochet, or Bela Kun. In any conception of justice that has existed on this world, these crimes deserved either imprisonment for life or, by the standards of others, death. No amount of money would undo what they have done.

Yet you purpose that your Jesus Christ will forgive anything, so long as you're willing to say, "My bad God. Looks like I shouldn't have killed those millions. I'm a sinner, but I accept you and your son, so we're all good, right?". God therefore must not be just, as he does not punish sin.

You're essentially saying that I broke the law, and Jesus Christ helped me get away with it. Once again, in any conception of justice that has ever existed in this world, that makes Jesus Christ as much an accomplice to the crime as I am.

More so, according to your own faith, who designed humanity? According to Genesis, it was God.
According to your own faith, who designed the world? The universe? The very foundation that you claim all of this is based on? God. Then who must have created the devil that so fills man with sin? God.
And therefore who, by extension or indirectly, must have created sin? God.

Your God therefore punishes people for "flaws" in his own creation, that he must have made to begin with. How is this the actions of a just God?

I know this must be hard for you to understand, you must have been told this from the cradle. However, the logic that underlies God is not rational. It's concepts are not the same concepts as a well thought, well reasoned man, but rather a religion founded in superstition, and the wish to enforce absolutes in an uncertain world. I know the world is big and scary, and that you must be afraid of a world without absolutes, but trust me when I say, the world does just fine without God.

I do concede that God is just, and He must punish sin wherever it is found. No matter how well it is hidden. He must punish liars, theives, murders, fornicators. If God is just, and He is, then he must punish sin.

Back to the court of law. I stand guilty of my crimes. I have been caught red-handed. The judge says the fine for your crimes is $500,000 or life in prison. How are you going to pay for your crimes. I say Judge I haven't got two cents to rub together. He then will reply that I will spend the rest of my life in prison. Just as I'm about to be led away to prison. You burst into the court room, and say Judge gw's my friend I have the money and I'll pay his fine. I am then free to go on the basis that the fine has been paid. That is what Jesus Christ did for you. You broke the law. Jesus Christ paid your fine. He took your punishment for sin when He died on the cross. He not only took punishment from the Roman soldiers who beat him mercilessly, then hung him on the cross. But the Bible also says that God's wrath was poured out upon Christ as he took our punishment for sin.

I know this is hard to grasp. The Bible says that God takes the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. We must set aside our pride, and tell God, "I'm sorry. I really messed up." And thats a hard thing to do. Anytime you tell somebody that you were wrong is a humbling experience, but that is exactly what God expects of us. Because God resist the pround and gives grace to the humble. This is one time you cannot afford to be wrong. Don't let pride get in your way. Confess your sins to God. Turn from yours sins, and put your trust in Jesus Christ.

Let's use your exact same analogy for a moment.

Say you're in a court of law, and you have committed heinous crimes against humanity. For the sake of argument, let us take it to the extreme. Let's say that you have committed crimes that would make Hitler look like a saint in comparison. Are you genuinely going to argue that by saying, "Well judge, I accept the President as my saviour, therefore you should absolve me of all crimes?". You must either concede that your God is just, and therefore sends all those who have committed any sins to hell (Which, by extension, means you we are all doomed to hell), or your god is unjust and absolves anyone who commits a "sin" for a simple worship or Christ, and sends all those who may try to better the world, to hell.

This is the contradictory dogma taught by Christians. Are you to truly try and make me believe, that despite all of your sins, you can be absolved of any sins simply by accepting Jesus as your saviour? Then, are you going to try and convince me, in the same breath, that these are the actions of a just God?

I am trying to reason with you, just as you are trying to reason with me. Just as you are trying to warn me of the oncoming big rig about to splat me across the road, I am trying to explain to you that we're standing in our living rooms, and this is all just a bad nightmare; rational thought will awake you from this nightmare.

You and I know it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal, and lust. We both agree on that. However, the way we have come to those conclusions are completely different. You believe that it is wrong out of fear, out of the fear of an omniscient god who will come to make you pay in the afterlife. I believe it is wrong, because I have determined my own morality, and I have chosen for myself what is right and wrong.

Just as you believe you have the duty to try and save me, I believe I have the duty to show you the illusions that you see before your eyes, and give you a glimpse in to a reality without fear and superstition.

Sure. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, your in a court of law. You have committed a serious crime, let's say murder. The court has found you guilty. The judge ask you if you have a statement before he passes sentence. You say yes judge I'm a very good person. I volunteer, I do this I do that. Why, you are the United Way's poster child. If you looked up in the dictionary under perfect citizen, your picture would be there. You then precede to tell the judge, "In light of that I think you should let me go, besides I promise to never do it again." The judge isn't going to say, "Well then case dismissed." No way! Only a corrupt judge would do that. He will tell you all your good deeds are irrelevant. The case at hand is you killed somebody, and now you must answer to the law for your misdeed.

You may think I like to argue, or that I'm am trying to persuade you to give religion a try. But that is not my purpose. In fact if its winning an agrument, then I concede-you win. My purpose is to warn you of your impending doom if you do not turn from your sin and put your trust in Christ. You may say I don't believe in Christ, God, etc., but that is like me standing in the middle of the interstate saying, "I don't believe in traffic." If I don't get out of the road a big 18-wheeler is going to splatter me all across the road. I am warning you. I'm pleading with you get off the road of sin. The vehicle of God's eternal justice is heading right for you. If you have not repented, and put your trust in Jesus Christ you will spend eternity in Hell. I don't want you to go there. Please listen to your conscience. You know it's not right to lie, steal, look with lust. You are more than capable of writing some smart remark back to this post, and I'm sure some will. But know that my purpose is to save people from God's wrath. And yes, even if they don't want me too. It is my duty. It is my blessing, and my curse. If only you could see what I see. I pray God open's you heart and your mind to receive what I have said.

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Originally posted by Kharybdis:
Oh son, gwadnnek's busting out the good person test. You're out of your league, Chaos. Best watch yourself.

Don't curse.

And don't worry. Watch this.

Yes, I have lied, cheated, stolen, looked at women with lust (And did things that are definitely lustful), and did a whole range of other "sinful" deeds.

And guess what? I'm still a good person. Wanna know why?

Because I've done more good things for my family, friends, and community then I have done bad things. I've done bad things primarily in the name of doing good. (As a matter of fact, I think I was doing damn good when I did those lustful things. )

And since I set my *own* standard of right and wrong, I've got the definition of right and wrong covered.

So yes, I have told a lie, and I'm still a good person. ^_^

Wanna try again?

Oh shit son, gwadnnek's busting out the good person test. You're out of your league, Chaos. Best watch yourself.

No, not exactly. My next question was, "Have you ever told a lie?"

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Originally posted by gwadnnek:
No, you both are missing the point. The point is, "Do you consider yourself to be a good person?"

How is this point?

The entire thread has been dedicated to whether the disbelief of God makes sense.

But fine, yes, I do consider myself a good person.

And I'll jump right ahead of you and answer, "How do you know?, by saying, "I set my own standard of right and wrong".