i have heard so many times about Christians who 'thrust' the word of God down others' throats. why is it so important to win? i understand the point trying to be brought across to others, but does everyone really think that's all Christians are about?

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So we are to distrust those who have found truth.

Those who claim to have found it. Obviously, I can't know for sure if someone else really has found the truth or if they just found what they think is the truth. Whatever the case, my best option is to seek the truth on my own, as opposed to accepting their truth as my truth.

Now, if someone can demonstrate that they have, without a doubt, found the truth, I would be foolish to be skeptical. But no one can do that. No one can do anything more than claim they've found the truth and attempt to prove it.

In your scenario, it would be like a doctor claiming to have found a cure for cancer, but he doesn't have any notes, nor has his research been verified by his peers. And worse, he hasn't yet been able to demonstrate that his cure works on human patients who have cancer. He can claim he has a cure all he wants, but no one is going to believe him unless he produces some proof that his cure works.

It's the same thing with religion. The Bible claims that belief in Jesus is necessary to avoid going to hell, but the only proof it offers is itself. Aside from being a logical fallacy, that's not good enough. How do I know the Bible is accurate? How do I know the Bible's truth is the truth, as opposed to the Qu'ran's truth being the truth? Or any other holy book's truth? How can I know if their claims are true or not? My answer: I can't. I can't be sure that any religion is what it says it is.

So, I will trust anyone who can provide undeniable, indubitable evidence that their truth is the truth. But until then, I'll continue to be skeptical.

Breathoflife, welcome to YN. In the future, please condense your replies to one or two posts so it keeps down the clutter on the boards. If you need to edit your post, you have five to ten minutes to do so after posting. Using the icon at the top right hand corner of your post that looks like a folder with an eraser, you can edit or delete your reply at will.

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Originally posted by breathoflife:

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Originally posted by Bushsupporter:

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anything that contradicts scripture and doctrine is wrong and will end up with you in hell

That isn't what real Christians believe. If people think that and claim they are Christians, they are not. Real Christians beleive that you will go to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as the true Savior and Mesiah. You see, he was a completely innocent man who died in order to clense us of our sins. Before he died, people had to follow all of God's law or be punished with hell. God realized this was impossible and sent his son to die for us. The only tenent of real Christianity is that you must accept Jesus. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. The only way to heaven is through me."

people who don't believe do go to hell but they not only have to belive they have to accept him

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Originally posted by Bushsupporter:

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I am Christian, and I find many fellow believers to be arrogant jerks.

I find many jews, muslims, atheists, and witches to be arrogant. But of course you are right, Christians are the worst slum of the religious world. I hate all of them. I will even start a new board for all of you.

Okay so u hate me that don't matter to me but hear me out why are we so dumb? Do u think that wat we believe is not as important as wat u believe? Our opinion and way of believeing and trusting may be different from u but so wat u shouldn't hate all christians when u don't know all of us. Every one is not the same we are uniqe in our own way and i don't know wat made u hate christians but i know its not my fault but go ahead hate me when u know nothin of me. I hate no one not even those who hate me i may dislike them but never will i hate. I don't think i'm better than anybody cause i'm a christian they are in equal standing with myself and no i ain't gonna talk about u but y bash all christians when not all are the same?

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Originally posted by Bushsupporter:

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anything that contradicts scripture and doctrine is wrong and will end up with you in hell

That isn't what real Christians believe. If people think that and claim they are Christians, they are not. Real Christians beleive that you will go to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as the true Savior and Mesiah. You see, he was a completely innocent man who died in order to clense us of our sins. Before he died, people had to follow all of God's law or be punished with hell. God realized this was impossible and sent his son to die for us. The only tenent of real Christianity is that you must accept Jesus. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. The only way to heaven is through me."

So we are to distrust those who have found truth. Let's put it into terms I can understand for a moment. Say I am a doctor, and I have found the cure for cancer. Do you not trust me to give you the cure? Your trust in me would depend on if you had cancer, and how long you had to live.

The disease of humanity is sin (lying, stealing, cheating, coveting, murder, sexual perversion, blasphemy, etc.). How many of us can actually say I have never sinned? No one if they are honest with themselves. You see the ultimate statistic is 10 out of 10 die, and then we will stand before a righteous and just God who will judge us for who we really are. Our death will be proof of our sin. The proof of God's love and mercy is when He sent is only Son to take the penalty of our sin. Some of you may have already turned me off, and not listening to a word I'm saying. But you owe it to yourself to at least think about it.

Let's use another story to illustrate this. Say you committed a serious crime. Your in court and you have just been found guilty of that crime. The judge says the fine is $500,000 or life in prison. The bad news you don't have 2 cents to rub together. You say judge I cant pay that. He will then say, "Off to prison with you." But all of sudden somebody burst into the court, and says they will pay the fine. At that point your free to go, not because you are innocent, but because someone paid the fine. That's what Jesus did for you. You broke the Law (Exodus 20). The penalty is death, and Jesus Christ paid the fine for you on the cross. All you have to do is repent of your sins, and put your trust in Jesus Christ then on the Day of Judgment you will be free to go because he paid your fine.

Indeed. Trust those who claim to seek the truth. Distrust those who claim to have found it.

I think that people want to win because they are prideful. Everyone wants to be right. But thr truth is if two opposing opinions are stated then one is right and one is wrong. What we should be looking for is the truth. Not, are we right.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SLASHIROTH:
you can choke some one with religion i.e. the muslim extremists are trying to wipe out all religion except theres thus choking out every one elses views on religion instead of just letting every one have there own opinions and my mom tries to choke me with religion forcimg me to go to her church (a mormom church (i dont have anything against the religion)) i like to be able to just walk into a church and be like ok i can experience there veiws on religion (what they like)[/QUOTE

i was sorta forced by my mom when i was younger but i believed in God already i just didn't see why she was doing it but i realize now she didn't want me to go to hell and i try now not to force anything on people cause sometimes it pushes them further away

sometimes people force things upon u so u won't go to hell i don't like that people try to force it on you but the choice is always yours in what u want to believe

it doesn't matter what kind of person they are they will go to hell if they don't except Jesus and Jesus died so that murderers can be forgiven and everyone else's sins to but he won't force u to accept him that choice is yours and what u chose will affect everything

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I disagree with that belief. Essentially, it is saying that a murderer who believes in Jesus will go to Heaven and a good Samaritan who believes in the power of helping others over the power of a holy man will go to Hell. Never made much sense to me.

Not necessarily. Forgive me for not being specific. Just believing in Jesus doesn't get you into Heaven. You can't live a life all for yourself and expect God to reward you. You have to truly accept Christ into your heart and repent of your sins. Repent means to turn away from sin. That does not mean that a Christian is supposed to be absolutely perfect, as perfection does not exist in this world. But to truly repent is to acknowledge that sins are sins and not things to be enjoyed or acted on as they go against God. A murderer may be forgiven if they repent and try to live a more Christ-like life. And I understand it may seem wrong to send a "good person" to Hell just for not believing but the reason for that is this: Jesus came to earth to die, to suffer for everyone's sins so that they may be able to receive forgiveness. God doesn't have to save any of us. We are all deserving of punishment for polluting God's world with immoralities and injustice. However God was loving and willing enough to send himself in the flesh to be beaten and die horribly so that some of us may have a chance to endure Heaven. For someone to deny that they need a savior is to say that they are perfect enough to live on their own. They are better than other people. They are perfect enough to live a completely sin-less life, that they have the ability to always make the right choice without hesitation. Whether you believe in Christ as God or just another man, it does not change the fact that he was willing to DIE so that people could be saved. He suffered a great deal and rejecting Him is a selfish thing to do.

At least, according to Christians. I can't get you to see it differently if you don't want to believe it.

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It is stated in the Bible that from the moment you are conceived in your mother's womb, God will know exactly the kind of person you are going to be. If He knows that in your life you will never accept Jesus into your heart He is not going to bother with you.

Calvinistic predestination at its finest.

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People who call themselves Christian try really hard to get others to convert because they know that if someone does not completely accept Jesus that they are going to go to hell.

I disagree with that belief. Essentially, it is saying that a murderer who believes in Jesus will go to Heaven and a good Samaritan who believes in the power of helping others over the power of a holy man will go to Hell. Never made much sense to me.

I go to a historically-Christian (now only in name) college and it's amazing how many times religion can come into conversations. Some days, even when they are just stating their belief, it can get annoying as it feels as though they assume that everyone is Christian. Based on my experiences at this college, I don't know if all the Christians supposedly shoving Christianity down our throats really are as when you get too much of hearing comments for a religion that you don't agree with after a bad day, it can feel as though they are out to get you and convert you.

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i have heard so many times about Christians who 'thrust' the word of God down others' throats. why is it so important to win? i understand the point trying to be brought across to others, but does everyone really think that's all Christians are about?

People who call themselves Christian try really hard to get others to convert because they know that if someone does not completely accept Jesus that they are going to go to hell. However Christians constantly tend to forget, or in some unfortunate cases were never told, that God Himself elects people to be saved. It is stated in the Bible that from the moment you are conceived in your mother's womb, God will know exactly the kind of person you are going to be. If He knows that in your life you will never accept Jesus into your heart He is not going to bother with you. Christians need to understand that they should always be kind and accepting no matter what a person believes and does. But Christians also need to accept that if a person is unwilling to consider Christianity that they should back off because forcing it on a person is not going to change whether God has elected them or not. It is not going to change the person's mind.

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Originally posted by LiveALittle:
and apologies for the grammatical erorrs in that last post; I'm in class and definitely not supposed to be on this site. It was quite rushed in an attempt to evade the teacher's eye.

If that's as bad as your grammar gets, you don't have anything to apologize for or worry about. It's the people who typ lik tis and omg cant capitoliz or anythin that we tend to want to hurt. Or the ones who type in all caps. *shudder* Do yourself (and the rest of us) a favor, however tempted you may be, never EVER type more than about five consectutive words in caps. Not that you seem like the type to need that advice.

To reply to your actual post though, that's a very interesting idea. Although I tend to lead more towards the "but maybe they are simply made to believe they can" line of thought. On the other hand, I know people who I respect as very critical thinkers who are convinced that they can, if you will, connect with God through spirituality. *shrugs* Religion will never go away, so I've mostly given up on trying to disprove it as a whole.

and apologies for the grammatical erorrs in that last post; I'm in class and definitely not supposed to be on this site. It was quite rushed in an attempt to evade the teacher's eye.

Then again, religion could be compared to the mechanistic worldview in the vein they both use intangibles to explain whatever they need explained. They're both based on ideas or entities that one can;t see but can only believe in; the only difference is that laissez-faire worldviews are based on reason. why is that much different though? Sure we as humans can't see or prove an omniscient being; but you can't see with your eyes you need to perceivce with your mind. Maybe some people can perceive adeity through spirituality...but maybe they are simply made to believe they can.

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THANKS guys for enlightening me, i was actually satirizing the title of this board

Ah, sorry about that. It's hard to tell sometimes.

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That could all be bullshit; I'm just speculating here.

If it's bullshit then it's bullshit that makes sense, after years of arguing with people here and elsewhere these are basically the conclusions I've come to as well.

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Maybe religion is more like autoerotic asphyxiation than choking?

That line made my day Khary.

Wasn't that more satisfying than a halfhearted one-liner?

I agree that in a lot of cases people turn to religion for comfort or peace of mind rather than being forcibly converted, and I don't think there's necessarily anything inherently wrong with that, nor is it necessarily a sign of being weak-minded., though.

Religious belief can lead to inaction, yeah, which is unfortunate. That's a downside of believing in a benevolent interventionist deity, I guess. I'm not sure there's a whole lot anyone can do to convince a believer that no one can help them but themselves, though.

My understanding was that religion is more of an explanation for the (presently) unexplainable, but I really haven't read much about the subject. Seems pretty likely that elements of both are true--natural phenomena and unanswerable philosophical questions are explained away through the framework of religion, and as the religion develops it becomes an organized structure which mainly benefits the ones at the top of the hierarchy.

That could all be bullshit; I'm just speculating here.

Maybe religion is more like autoerotic asphyxiation than choking?