I know a few of you have taken offense at my use of God(TM) in religious debates. Now, I'm not one to just throw out random vague insults to religion like that without explaining my reasoning, so here it is. No doubt some of you Christians will find this interesting.

Back in the day (Jesus' day, that is), most conversion to Jesus' brand of Judaism (not yet Christianity) was done by preaching. Some disciple (Paul, Simon Peter, Timothy, etc.) would get up on a rock or in a temple and tell the people assembled about the good news of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This was, of course, after Jesus himself died. When the man was still alive, he did most of the preaching, but it was in the same manner. There was no marketing of the idea. No products. No telling people that they'd go to hell if they didn't convert. Instead, it was promises of paradise after death, and forgiveness of sins, a much more wholesome image of the new religion.

However, something changed a few centuries after the original disciples died. The Church of Christ, started originally by Peter, grew and grew until it caught the attention of Emperor Constantine of Rome somewhere in the fourth century CE (I'm skipping all the Christian-hating in the intervening times). He "converted" (wasn't baptized until mere weeks before death) and forced everyone to abandon the usual Roman "pagan" religions and convert to Christianity under pain of death. Things started to get nasty. The modern idea of "our way or the highway" came into being. People were told that if they didn't become a good Christian, they'd rot in hell with all the Jews and pagans. Heck, the Catholic church still says that.

Okay, history lesson over. From Constantine's time onward, things stayed just about the same for the Church of Christ, later known as the Roman Catholic Church. Now begins my true beef with Christianity: commercialism. The modern times ushered in yet another way to promote Christianity. WWJD bracelets, shirts that say "My GOD is better than your god", and little fish plaques for your car. Pocket crosses, Christian rock/rap, billboards, and many more things have invaded the lives of everyone, Christian or no. I've gotta tell you, it gets damn annoying after a bit. But I digress.

Preaching is no longer "hip". It's not cool to just go up to someone and say "Jesus loves you, man!" Maybe in Godspell, but not in high school. Instead, you flood peoples' lives with Christian imagery. The cross, the fish, WWJD, and so on. Christ has been commercialized. The old ways of prosetylizing are obsolete. If Jesus of Nazareth appeared in the middle of a church today, he'd probably keel over from a heart attack (technology shock notwithstanding). Where he once preached on a hilltop to common people, churchs "preach" to a select group of regulars who are Christians, but in no way Christian. Jesus allegedly said just as you don't send a doctor to heal the healthy, he didn't come to save the saved.

But isn't that what's happening?

People wanting salvation who don't "fit the mold" are turned away from churches.

Some people aren't even bugged by Christian evangelists because they're "too far gone".

And don't even get me started on judgmental Christians. "Judge not lest ye be judged." Have you so quickly forgotten the advice of Jesus, the man around whom the whole religion of Christianity is based?

I hope this has adequately explained how Christianity is straying from what Jesus of Nazareth set out to do 2000 years ago.

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Heeey read the Gospels my friend, Christ most definitely did warn people to repent or they will perish, and whatnot.

People who do not believe in the bible will not convert to your way of thinking because the bible states this or that, for obvious reasons.

Humans are intelligent, but there are other intelligent species. Other apes, for example, are capable of showing compassion and recognizing that killing each other is wrong. Naturally, like humans, they do this anyway, but nonetheless, apes could be said to be capable of "sinning". Why doesn't your God pass judgement on other species?

Scare tactics rarely work as they're supposed to. I know this from experience. And since the presence of eternal punishment after death still hasn't been proven to me, I couldn't really care less if someone tells me I'm going to hell after I die.

"No telling people that they'd go to hell if they didn't convert."


Heeey read the Gospels my friend, Christ most definitely did warn people to repent or they will perish, and whatnot.



(I'm not trying to be mean, or start an angry debate by the way....definitely no hard feelings.)

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Originally posted by Autismnomore:
As Catholics, we know that Jesus was indeed human, but since he was placed into Mary by the Holy Spirit, he is DIVINE. Holy, therefore, God. The thing that i disagree with is when they say the the pope is holy. Yes, he is holy is spirit, but he is NOT infallible, and he is just as human as anyone else. Only God, the Hloy Spirit, and Jesus are the holy Trinity. I can understand how it is confusing. There are three different "beings," so why are they the same person?

I believe you're the one that's confused. Let me break it down for you:

Jesus: Human. A very wise, divine human. The Messiah. Etc. But not God, not as perfect as God, and still a mere human.

God: The deity. The one in charge of all of it. The only one who is truly perfect in every way.

The Holy Spirit: The feeling of God that lives within you when you accept Him. Like the wind; you can feel it and you know it's there but you can't see it.

The Pope has nothing to do with this discussion.

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he was placed into Mary by the Holy Spirit

Again, up for debate. The idea of a deity impregnating a human woman is very...Greek. Besides, as I believe someone's said before, how can a noncorporeal being impregnate someone? No sperm. Okay, poor argument, but there's still no evidence that God was involved in Jesus' birth (or life) in any way.

You've got to do a lot harder than that to convince me that anybody on Earth is semi-divine.

I dispise christianity as a collective. I personally beleive in Christ as the messiah/ son of god, but it is in spite of the church(church meaning- the their world population of christians). It is a deep held beleif that when people work for Christs word through the directive of their own faith and independently formed understanding of Christ(just you and the bible) they do wonderful good(Mother Theresa). When you use the church for your spiritual crucible, you are bound to adapt to someone elses view of faith. Churches can be good only to create community in hard times or to bring collective together resources. I think the church is just another thing christ has asked us to create as a part of our lives that we fail to do well enough. I consider the church a neccesary evil that creates more good atheists through its tactics of evangializing than it makes good christians.

As Catholics, we know that Jesus was indeed human, but since he was placed into Mary by the Holy Spirit, he is DIVINE. Holy, therefore, God. The thing that i disagree with is when they say the the pope is holy. Yes, he is holy is spirit, but he is NOT infallible, and he is just as human as anyone else. Only God, the Hloy Spirit, and Jesus are the holy Trinity. I can understand how it is confusing. There are three different "beings," so why are they the same person?

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WE go to church because God said to. Jesus...same guy.

Sorry to burst your bubble but you're completely wrong.

Jesus was a human. A very good and wise human but, alas, only a human. Now that does not mean that he wasn't the Messiah, only that he wasn't actually, physically God.

Jesus is part of the Trinity, yes, and is Godlike but he is not God.

The reason why you are under this impression is simply because The Nicea Council voted to put more Godlike accounts of Jesus into the New Testament. But that's a whole 'nother story...

That was more a rant about faith than about Jesus being divine.

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Originally posted by clpo13:
You still haven't convinced me that Jesus was God.

REad my last post on "Does Anyone Understand Religion?"

You still haven't convinced me that Jesus was God.

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Originally posted by bauhaus:
It became commercialized as soon as people started building churches. Everyone says how can you not believe in God, look around you God is everywhere. So why build a structure to whorship him in? You can go outside and whorship everything around you, you are his creation whorship youself, I dont understand how people build churches with big screen TV's state of the art sound systems, and spend all this money to become closer to God. I think church is bogus.

WE go to church because God said to. Jesus...same guy.

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So jesus would have thought it was ok for christians to brag about being christian? Many christians have problems with gays having rainbow flag bumper stickers.

Many people probably would have a problem with the Marine sticker on my back windshield. So what? Just because someone is going to have a problem with something you believe, are interested in, etc. doesn't mean you're going to stop proclaiming that belief.

And we're not bragging by wearing that stuff (though this thoroughly excludes the "My God is better than your god" tees). We're simply expressing what we believe in. Rainbow stickers proclaim that they either are gay or in support of homosexual marriage. It's a form of expression. If I have a fish on the back of my car, I'm expressing that I believe in Jesus Christ. No big deal. Yes, someone is always going to disagree with it. So what?

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In regards to people wearing “WWJD” bracelets, having fishes on their car, and wearing clothes that have reference to Christ in a positive manner; it is not wrong in any means. People wear sport apparel to say that they like this team or another team. It lets the people around them know that they support that team. It is the same with Christians. They may wear thing that have reference to Jesus or God. It let’s thought around them know that they are a follower of Christ, and the same is true with the fish on their car. Another reason that Christians will wear these things or put them on their car is to serve as a reminder of what they are fighting for and to be encouraged to keep going. So wearing clothes that are in support of Christ is no different than anybody saying I like this or I like that.

So jesus would have thought it was ok for christians to brag about being christian? Many christians have problems with gays having rainbow flag bumper stickers.

Hello, I’ve read what you have written and this is the truth. Yes Jesus is about loving people. We know he loves us because of what he has done for us. “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13) To give your life for another’s life is the greatest act of love. We know that Jesus did this for us “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.” (1 John 3:16) So there is no doubt that Jesus Christ loves us. He has done the greatest act of love for us. But, this doesn’t not mean that everybody will go to heaven when they die. The Bible tells us, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16) This says that you have to believe in Christ to receive eternal life. Yet again the Bible tells us twenty verses later “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.” (John 3:36) So it’s not just Jesus die for our sins and everybody get to go to heaven. You have to believe.

Now I know that some people that call themselves Christian have used the “turn or burn” method for trying to convert people (ex. the Catholic Church), where it is true that if you do not accept Christ as your savior you will go to hell, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) Now this tells us that we deserve death, not just a physical death but a complete death. As we are created in God’s image; “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” (Genesis 1:26) So as God is a trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so are we. We have a physical body, a soul, and we have a spirit. Now if the wages of sin is death it is death to all three. So yes it is correct for them to say “if you do not accept Christ then you will surly go to hell”, this is true. But as you pointed out this was not the way that Jesus went about it.

The way that Jesus went about winning souls to God was meeting them where they are at, “While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples.” (Matthew 9:10) The tax collector and the “sinners” were the social out cast, and Jesus would spend time with them because he wanted to love them. “On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.” (Matthew 9:12) So Christian should be doing as Christ has done as an example for us. We should not, although it is true, use the “accept Christ or you will go to Hell” method. We should do as Christ did. Go to where the sick are and love them. Love them where they are at, but love them more not to leave them there. This is the way that Christ did it. This do not mean that you should hound them until they accept Christ, but that you should be an example of Christ to them and let the Father bring them to himself. Although it is very important information I believe that I have gone off topic.

In regards to people wearing “WWJD” bracelets, having fishes on their car, and wearing clothes that have reference to Christ in a positive manner; it is not wrong in any means. People wear sport apparel to say that they like this team or another team. It lets the people around them know that they support that team. It is the same with Christians. They may wear thing that have reference to Jesus or God. It let’s thought around them know that they are a follower of Christ, and the same is true with the fish on their car. Another reason that Christians will wear these things or put them on their car is to serve as a reminder of what they are fighting for and to be encouraged to keep going. So wearing clothes that are in support of Christ is no different than anybody saying I like this or I like that.

You brought up another interesting point. You said “It's not cool to just go up to someone and say ‘Jesus loves you, man!’” Let me tell you why this is the way it is. Most Christian don’t just go up to people and tell them “Jesus loves you”, because they are either afraid or don’t want to be pushy with Christ. If a Christian goes up to a random person and tells them that Jesus loves them. The Christian thinks that the person will say things like “Leave me alone”, “Don’t talk to me about that Jesus guy”, or “Your so stupid for believing that carp”. Although this may not be the way they respond it is what the Christian thinks will happen. It is true that Christian should not be afraid to tell thoughts around them that “Jesus loves them”, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” (Romans 1:16)

As I finish I just want you to know that Jesus loves you and that he is there with you waiting for you to let him in to your life. “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.” (Revelation 3:20) Jesus loves you!
-thach85-

“First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.” (2 Peter 3:3)

He "converted" (wasn't baptized until mere weeks before death) and forced everyone to abandon the usual Roman "pagan" religions and convert to Christianity under pain of death. Things started to get nasty. The modern idea of "our way or the highway" came into being. People were told that if they didn't become a good Christian, they'd rot in hell with all the Jews and pagans. Heck, the Catholic church still says that.


I am Catholic, and have never thought exactly the same as the church. I follow the main part of the church, but I don't believe that other religions will go to Hell. Honestly, as long as you are a good person you won't go to Hell.No matter what your religion.

*delete

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Originally posted by clpo13:
I know a few of you have taken offense at my use of God(TM) in religious debates.

Oooh, Oooh, that was Me!

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No doubt some of you Christians will find this interesting.

Right you are.

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Back in the day (Jesus' day, that is), most conversion to Jesus' brand of Judaism (not yet Christianity) was done by preaching. Some disciple (Paul, Simon Peter, Timothy, etc.) would get up on a rock or in a temple and tell the people assembled about the good news of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This was, of course, after Jesus himself died. When the man was still alive, he did most of the preaching, but it was in the same manner.

This is what ministers do, except now they have a place to do it in. Jesus also looked down on hypocrites that went out and praised His name in the middle of the street just for attention and suggested praying alone. Perhaps this is the reason why no one starts preaching on the side of the street and we now have churches for people to do it in. Regrettably, these people also get paid but there's plenty of people who spread the Good News who aren't paid for doing so (i.e. missionaries).

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There was no marketing of the idea. No products. No telling people that they'd go to hell if they didn't convert. Instead, it was promises of paradise after death, and forgiveness of sins, a much more wholesome image of the new religion.

Now, dear, you and I both know that it depends on which Christian you are talking to. I feel I provide the wholesome image and not the "going to hell" image as several of the Christians I know also do.

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However, something changed a few centuries after the original disciples died. The Church of Christ, started originally by Peter, grew and grew until it caught the attention of Emperor Constantine of Rome somewhere in the fourth century CE (I'm skipping all the Christian-hating in the intervening times). He "converted" (wasn't baptized until mere weeks before death) and forced everyone to abandon the usual Roman "pagan" religions and convert to Christianity under pain of death. Things started to get nasty. The modern idea of "our way or the highway" came into being. People were told that if they didn't become a good Christian, they'd rot in hell with all the Jews and pagans. Heck, the Catholic church still says that.

Eh, I'm not Catholic, so I don't have much of an opinion on this. From what I know about the Catholic Church, I'm not a big fan. But, just one comment I want to make: You don't have to be baptized to be a Christian. Well, not as far as I know. I wasn't baptized until I was confirmed to my church because my parents wanted me to make that decision on my own.

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Okay, history lesson over. From Constantine's time onward, things stayed just about the same for the Church of Christ, later known as the Roman Catholic Church. Now begins my true beef with Christianity: commercialism. The modern times ushered in yet another way to promote Christianity. WWJD bracelets, shirts that say "My GOD is better than your god", and little fish plaques for your car. Pocket crosses, Christian rock/rap, billboards, and many more things have invaded the lives of everyone, Christian or no. I've gotta tell you, it gets damn annoying after a bit. But I digress.

I agree about the annoying bit. And I've never seen the "My God is better than your god" T-shirts - that's pretty offensive, even to me. But all of these things, I feel, are more of an effort to let us express our Christianity than to actually promote Christianity. Things like the WWJD bracelets are a reminder of how we should live our lives as Christians. The fish are representative of how Christians used to communicate when they were being persecuted. And, while I agree that Christianity is probably the most "commercialized" you cannot deny that other religions have stuff out there - I would name especially Wicca. We're probably most familiar with the Christian merchandise because the majority of the people in America are Christian but there are products for people of other religions too.

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Preaching is no longer "hip". It's not cool to just go up to someone and say "Jesus loves you, man!" Maybe in Godspell, but not in high school. Instead, you flood peoples' lives with Christian imagery. The cross, the fish, WWJD, and so on. Christ has been commercialized. The old ways of prosetylizing are obsolete.

Clpo, I don't think you can honestly tell me that you would rather someone preach to you sporadically then have to endure commercialized symbols that are possible to ignore. While I'm not denying that Christian products can be found in a variety of stores, many will have them hidden behind tube tops unless you go into an entire Christian-oriented store.

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Where he once preached on a hilltop to common people, churchs "preach" to a select group of regulars who are Christians, but in no way Christian. Jesus allegedly said just as you don't send a doctor to heal the healthy, he didn't come to save the saved.

Again, this is not all churches, nor all Christians in all the churches. Unfortunately, my only example is me after the recent upheaval my church has been in - and I'll admit it has been very